Scroll Top
Three Things Creative Leaders Should Say — and Mean With Janis Fratamico
June 30, 2021 Communication Leadership Management
Guest Speaker

Janis Fratamico

Global VP of field marketing, Citrix

Janis Fratamico is a senior marketing executive with experience leading multinational teams to drive innovation, long-term strategy, and business results for complex global corporations. Before joining Citrix, Janis lent her talents to companies like SAP, Bloomberg, and IBM.

Build trust as a leader by avoiding these three white lies.

Leaders aren’t perfect communicators. According to Citrix global VP of field marketing Janis Fratamico, there are three distinct statements she’s heard during her career that leaders should say sincerely — but often don’t.

In this episode of Real Creative Leadership, Adam Morgan connects with Janis about the most common white lies leaders tell, and why it’s important to be sincere as a creative leader.

Watch this episode to discover:

  • What it means to have a “real failure”
  • Why true authenticity is silent
  • How disagreement can help a professional relationship grow
View Transcript
mentioned in this show:
adammorgan
Adam Morgan
Creative Leader and RCL Host
stoke-logo
The Stoke Group
Digital Marketing and Full-Service Content Agency
Prev
Next

Leave a comment

Transcript

Janice:

Bringing those people in who have a different point of view and have a different set of experiences and who aren’t afraid to speak truth to power are the folks who are really going to be the game changers.

Adam Morgan:

Welcome to Real Creative Leadership, a place where creative leaders can find insights and practical guidance on the day-to-day job of being a creative leader. We focus on real issues, topics, and insights of creativity in the business world. Join me as we explore the best strategies for developing your team, getting others to embrace your vision, and generating amazing experiences. This webinar series is produced by The Stoke Group. I’m your host, Adam Morgan, Adobe Executive Creative Director, author of Sorry Spock, Emotions Drive Business, and this is Real Creative Leadership.

Adam Morgan:

Welcome back to Real Creative Leadership. We are so excited. Today, we are talking about leadership, and not just generic leadership topics. We’re going to talk about how you show up and speak to your team and others in your org. But what are you really communicating? We’re going to break it down and make sure you’re not a big fat liar or at least not giving lip service. So today I am excited to welcome Janice [inaudible 00:01:12], the global VP of Field Marketing at Citrix. Janice, do you want to introduce yourself and give our audience a little bit of background on who you are and where you come from?

Janice:

Yeah, sure. I mean, you kind of summed it up very nicely, but I did just recently join Citrix about six weeks ago as their Global Vice President for Field Marketing. Prior to that, I was the Head of Brand Experience at SAP and I was there for five years and then did a stint at Bloomberg, did a long stint at IBM, and that kind of summarizes I think the bulk of my professional career.

Adam Morgan:

Oh, excellent. Well, we’re grateful to have you on the show. So today’s questions and topics, I’ll give a little intro and then I’m going to ask you a few questions then have you dig into it with us.

Janice:

Okay.

Adam Morgan:

But today we’re going to talk about there are a lot of jargon and hot terms that leaders throw out there and not all of them are true. I think many of you have heard some of these things where you’re like, “Ah, I know they’re telling me something, but I don’t know if that’s necessarily real or the right thing.” And since this is Real Creative Leadership, we want to get real. So as we spoke earlier, you had a short list of three lies that leaders always say, so why don’t you start out by telling us about what are those three lies and then I’d love to dig into each of those specifically and we’re going to dig in a little deeper and talk about them. But maybe give us an intro about these three things that you’ve heard leaders say that aren’t necessarily true.

Janice:

Okay. Yeah. And I kind of made them up on the fly when we were actually prepping for this and I was like, “I like that.” And it kind of came off a book I got a long time ago called Lies My Teacher Told Me, and it’s all these things that we learned in like grade school, historically, that aren’t true. And I was like, “Okay, there’s like lies my leader told me,” and it kind of summarizes I think a lot of things that I’ve talking about for a while, but it’s nice to kind of put them in three buckets. So yeah, the lies my leader told me, I came up with three of them, right?

Janice:

One of them is that they’re authentic. I’m an authentic leader. The second lie is it’s okay to fail. And the third lie is that it’s okay to disagree with me. I support differences of opinions. So those are the three things that you hear leaders talk about and we could dig into each one of them a lot, but I think a lot of times a bit disingenuous, and I think if it is genuine, I think you’re a really strong leader.

Adam Morgan:

And that’s a good caveat right there because we’re not saying that these three topics are always a lie.

Janice:

No.

Adam Morgan:

Most leaders say it and they just don’t mean it is what you’re saying.

Janice:

Right. I think the leaders that mean it are the better leaders.

Adam Morgan:

Gotcha. Okay. Well, let’s dig into them.

Janice:

Okay.

Adam Morgan:

So, authenticity. Tell me a little bit about that.

Janice:

In this case, it’s the opposite. If a leader doesn’t say it, they’re more likely authentic. It reminds me of like, I had a friend and she was dating this guy and she was telling me about him and she’s like, “Yeah, we sat down and we had this deep conversation and he told me how he’s really honest.” And I was like, “Dude, he’s not.” Like, if you have to say it, you’re not. And I think that that’s what comes with this authenticity thing. I’ve never actually sat down and said, “I want you guys to know I’m really authentic.” Because that would just be weird and then also suggest that I’m not. And I’ve heard leaders say it before and the ones that I’ve heard talk about their authenticity are the ones that I found the least authentic.

Janice:

So that’s kind of my summary of that point. If they say it, they’re probably not. You just have to be and let people know that and I think they see it through your actions and how you interact with your team and your peers and superiors and it comes through with actions. But if you say it, I’d question it.

Adam Morgan:

Oh, that’s interesting. So yeah, if you say it, it’s a lie. You have to just live it.

Janice:

I think so.

Adam Morgan:

That’s fair. Well, tell us about it. You told me this story about when you left SAP that you left a note about being authentic.

Janice:

I did. I left a note that now that I’m saying it, I’m going against my own rule, but it was probably a pretty authentic goodbye note. It wasn’t terribly flowery or formal, but I just kind of riffed. I think what we were talking about was that I ended it with like my three pieces of unsolicited advice. And one of them came from Ginni Rometty who was the CEO of IBM when I was there. I have to stop working for acronyms, which I finally did. But when I worked for IBM, Ginni Rometty was the CEO and she always said growth and comfort do not co-exist. And I just love that. And she said it and I realized it was so defining of the way I’ve sort of addressed my career or the way I’ve coached people.

Janice:

If you’re comfortable doing it, you’re probably not making waves. And so that was my first piece of advice. My second piece of advice is work needs to be fun. And I just say that without shame. If you’re not having fun at your job, at least like a good chunk of it, kind of the 80% rule. 20% is going to suck no matter what, but 80% of your job you should love and it should be fun. And I don’t think there’s any shame in making work fun. So I said that was my second piece of unsolicited advice is work should be fun and if it’s not, find a new job. And then my third was never reply to all, which I will make an exception. If the building’s on fire and we’re all in the same building, you can then reply to all and say get out, the building’s on fire. But other than that, just never reply to all. So yeah, those were my three pieces of unsolicited advice.

Adam Morgan:

And I just wanted to get into it a little more, the reason why you wouldn’t reply to all is because you’re completely inauthentic. You’re completely…

Janice:

It’s a very self-serving thing to do. It’s completely inauthentic. It’s I want to be seen by everybody else has having congratulated Adam or told him I read his book and I thought he was brilliant. They’re almost universally self-serving and it’s like I want to be seen by everybody else welcoming someone or congratulating someone, or saying that I’ve read something that someone sent or whatever. So I think the self-serving aspect of it is the reason why. That, and the fact that already I’m behind on my emails and I’ve only been at this company for six weeks, so nobody actually wants more emails. So I do think it tends to be inauthentic and just a very kind of “look at me” thing, versus really serving your audience, which emails should always do.

Adam Morgan:

Yeah. That’s interesting. I think normally I just respond back to the one person.

Janice:

Yes, yes. I know somebody put something on Twitter and I retweeted it and it was something like, “We’re really happy that you got your vaccine, but there’s no need to reply to all to congratulate that person.” I was like that’s true.

Adam Morgan:

All right. So thinking more about this idea of you have to live an authentic life. You can’t just tell people about it. But let’s talk more about like we’re all used to our Instagram or our social feeds, and it’s always about most people put on this perfect face of like here’s my wonderful life and then we know behind the scenes there’s probably not a perfect life for most of us. It’s like you’re just showing it all.

Adam Morgan:

But it’s a little different as a leader. So how do you still hold a good leadership position without doing the Instagram fake feed, but then still showing that you have a real life. I think there’s an interesting balance there because most people in all their emails and everything will show, “Hey, I’ve got it all put together. I’m a great leader. I’m perfect. You don’t have to doubt me.”

Janice:

And recently, a woman who used to work for me at a company I no longer work for, but she sent me a DM on Instagram and it was all, “I love so much following your perfect life and your perfect family.” And I think she meant that seriously and I was like, “Oh my God.” I literally had to be mopped up off the floor that morning. I was a mess. I was like crying. It was bad. I was like, “You can’t even imagine how not true that is.” And yeah, it’s the face that we put to the world on social media. And I do think when I think about the people at work to whom I go to for advice, it’s the people who I know who have been through it too. While everybody’s Instagram feed pretty much is their perfect life, I think at the office, if you’re honest about your past, if you’re honest about your struggles, people will be more likely to come to you.

Janice:

It’s like that story about the guy who was in the hole and he couldn’t get out and then his friend came down in there with him and he looked at him and he said, “What are you doing?”

Janice:

His friend came down in there with him and he looked at him and he said, “What are you doing? Now we’re both stuck in the hole.” And the friend said, “Yeah, but I’ve been here before and I know the way out.” You know, those are the people who you tend to rely on. And there was one time, oh my gosh, I was on this panel and I was sitting next to this woman who I didn’t know very well, but she was a co-panelist with me. And the moderate asked us about like our biggest failure and stupidly I went first, which I’ve since learned you should never do. And I was like, “Oh, I got fired.” And it was like, “Really?” And I go, “I got fired from my first job out of college.” It was so traumatic and I kind of went through the whole story about how I got fired and that was sort of my biggest failure.

Janice:

And then this woman went next to me and her biggest failure that she shared was that she was in a hotel and her boss asked to meet her at the bar, and I’m thinking, “Oh, this is going to be a juicy, good failure story.” And she met him at the bar and he sat her down to tell her she was working too hard.

Adam Morgan:

Oh, garbage.

Janice:

And I was like, “Oh my God, I literally just outed myself that I got fired and she told a story about how her boss had a sit her down and tell her that she was working too hard.” I was like, “Okay, I put it out there but I put it out there in a way that made I think people feel comfortable talking to me about things and struggles that they’ve had because I was like yeah, I got canned.”

Adam Morgan:

I think it’s tough because you don’t want to put your guard down. Corporate society has taught us, you put your guard down, you’re toast. They’re going to walk over you and you’re going to be in trouble. So how do you do that? How do you stay authentic without just getting eaten alive?

Janice:

Well, some of it happens over the passage of time. I mean, when I got fired I didn’t even tell my parents, I like took a temp job and I was one of those people who lied about where I was going every day. Twenty years later I was an executive at IBM. I was like, “Okay, I can share this story. It worked out well.” But I think you always have to put yourself in the position of everybody else and think about what draws you to people. And you’re not drawn to the people whose lives you feel like you can’t ever live up to or who you just envy more than anything else. And I think that maybe that can hopefully drive more authentic behavior is when you just think about those people who you connect with, and they’re the people who are a bit broken and who are battered and who are bruised and who have been in that hole and have found their way out.

Janice:

And if you think about how you relate as a human to others, it can help drive how you kind of project yourself out to your team. And I think that can be helpful and it provides just a more open candid atmosphere with folks who work for you and with you to be able to lean on you a bit more and have you be there for them in a real way.

Adam Morgan:

Well, that’s good. So I’m just going to give a summary. So with authenticity, don’t tell people you’re authentic. Don’t talk about it in a way that it makes it sound like you’re grand standing, but just live it. And not only just live it, but it’s not like you just have to barf out every bad thing you’ve ever done to make them…

Janice:

No. No.

Adam Morgan:

It’s just like be in the moment, talk about things how they’re real, talk about your concerns, your questions, your failures, whatever, in the right light, and then just go on. So I think it’s just trying not to candy coat it either direction.

Janice:

Yeah. Yeah. But definitely have a filter. I mean, people don’t need to know that much about anybody.

Adam Morgan:

All right. Well, let’s move on to topic number two.

Janice:

Yeah.

Adam Morgan:

So it’s okay to fail. We hear this all the time. Please try hard. If you’re not failing, you’re not trying hard enough. I hear that I’m actually haunted right now with a failure that happened a couple of years ago that’s still getting me. So it’s not like it was forgiven, no chance. It’s a problem that I’m dealing with right now.

Janice:

What was it?

Adam Morgan:

Oh, it was just a campaign that went bad. It was a campaign we created and I thought it was like okay you can live and learn, but no, even in my growth right now, I’m feeling like that thing is holding me back.

Janice:

Really? So you still can’t find something to celebrate in terms of what you put out there that didn’t work?

Adam Morgan:

Who knows? Perception is reality, right?

Janice:

Yeah.

Adam Morgan:

Again, this wasn’t me to blab about my problems.

Janice:

No, that’s all right.

Adam Morgan:

But I think it’s the truth. You fail and do some things and it just burns a memory in leadership’s mind and they’re like, “Oh, whenever we go back to that person, that’s what comes up.” So, it’s hard to get around. But anyhow.

Janice:

Well, clearly it’s worked out for you, Adam.

Adam Morgan:

Huh?

Janice:

I mean, it’s not held you back clearly?

Adam Morgan:

Well, I’m trying. I’m trying for sure. Well, tell me more about that, your experience with leaders telling you it’s okay to fail and why that’s a lie.

Janice:

Yeah, that’s a lie because every time I’ve seen something fail, I’ve also seen everybody put lipstick on that pig. Every single time. And it’s to the point where we’re congratulating mediocrity, or even congratulating failure because we’ve put lipstick on a pig instead of just admitting it, learning from it, and moving on. The best example is back in the olden… it still happens now with virtual events, but even back in the olden days with physical events, it tends to be kind of a, I don’t want to say tried and true, but a rinse and repeat kind of method of a lot of marketing teams. And you’d say, “I’m going to do this event. I want a hundred people to come.” And then 50 people would register and then 10 people would show up and there’d be one opportunity and you’d be like, “Yes, it was great. Let’s do it again. We got an opportunity out of it and it was worth a couple million dollars,” when in no objective way would anybody look at and hear that story and think that was the success.

Janice:

But instead you put lipstick on that pig and you put it out there and you say it, I’ve found a couple of million dollars of opportunity, and then you did it again and you did it again and did it again. And we’re doing with virtual events right now, too. I mean, I think virtual events have an average show rate of like, for me, 0%, but in general, less than 20. And so when we get that, we’re congratulating ourselves and we’re putting it out there as a success when I don’t know, if I had a party and 20% of the people came, I think I would question whether people really like me or whether it was a good party.

Janice:

So, I think we have to stop celebrating mediocrity and start celebrating trying new things that may not work. And I think if leaders can do a better job of holding those failures up into like some level of something to be celebrated because that person went out and they got out of their comfort zone and they tried something different and we learned from it and here’s what we learned, and put a spotlight on those as much as the successes, then I think we would see a lot of marketing efforts move more quickly in the right direction.

Janice:

And instead there’s a great deal of rinse and repeat out there because we put lipstick on the pig and instead we’re not growing. So, I think we got to get out of that cycle.

Adam Morgan:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you had a good example from before. I’d love you to share it where you’re looking down, you know how typically on a page they’ll show all like the greens and the reds and the yellows of all your projects and if they’re in trouble or if they’re doing okay, talk to me about that story of where everything’s just all greens and your old boss would be upset if everything was all green.

Janice:

Wait, so I can’t even remember that story Adam.

Adam Morgan:

I remember hearing that, then maybe I am a fool. But anyhow, it was just something you said about as you go into a meeting so many times we like want to make everything look like it’s perfect and it’s all about failing. You want to see that there are some reds, there are some [crosstalk 00:17:52].

Janice:

Yeah. Yes, yes. And in fact there was one time where I was new to SAP and I was asked to highlight something that we had done in the region that I was running the marketing for at the time. And I said, “Oh, I’m going to put this… We really tried something different when it came to a live event and I’m going to tell everybody about that because it didn’t work.” And my boss kind of looked at me like, “What?” And I was like, “Yeah, no, we tried something different. We were a little bit provocative and we put it out there as something that here’s what we were thinking and here’s what we did and here’s what we tried and it really didn’t work. I wouldn’t recommend it. This wasn’t the kind of holy grail that we were hoping when it came to putting on live events.”

Janice:

And it was great because the reaction from the audience was sort of kind of they were paying attention because I told them upfront we were presenting a failure and the reception from my boss afterwards was like, “I actually think that was a giant success. You’re kind of painting that in the wrong way.” But I purposely put it out there in order to encourage other people to do the same thing. And aside from those charts where you’re like, okay where are we in trouble, I think it was the charts where you’re just looking at the success of the marketing programs that you put out there and every one of them was a wild success.

Janice:

That’s where it’s just sort of encouraging bad behavior because everybody feels like they have to put the spin on it. Maybe the spin on it is I went outside my comfort zone. I tried something different. I tested something new. There was a low risk obviously. You have to think about what you’re willing to fail at, but you did it and instead of celebrating that, we’re always trying to put the spin on it in a different direction. And I just think we should celebrate that spin.

Janice:

And I’ve actually, in my new role at Citrix, the first all hands I held, I said we’re going to celebrate the failures. I want you guys to come to me and tell me something you tried that didn’t work, but it better be something that’s new and something that you haven’t tried before. Let’s also be honest about the things that we’ve been doing on that kind of cycle and then go back-

Janice:

The things that we’ve been doing on that kind of cycle and then go back and look at where we can make them better instead of kind of celebrating mediocrity.

Adam Morgan:

Hmm. Yeah. So it’s almost like instead of just the lip services, “Hey, it’s okay to fail, but really we judge you-

Janice:

Yeah, yeah.

Adam Morgan:

… because we’re hiding and we’re spinning and making everything look like it’s perfect.” But-

Janice:

Yeah.

Adam Morgan:

… if we really shine a light on those failures and for the reason why not just because you’re working too hard, right? It’s for because you’re really going out of your comfort zone and trying something.

Janice:

Yeah.

Adam Morgan:

You said something about maybe making it a KPI, right?

Janice:

Yes. I think it should be. And not necessarily failure as a line item on your kind of business objectives or performance objectives at the end of the day, but what did you do new? What did you try that was different? And, I don’t care if it’s a success or a failure. I mean, I do, obviously, because then we’ll make a decision about whether we should invest and do more or not. But, make that KPI something that you actually put out there and did as a creative person, as a marketing leader, as a strategic person, whatever that hadn’t been done before and you hadn’t tried before and it was pushing outside your comfort zone. And I think if we look at those KPIs that are a little, they’re somewhat more qualitative than quantitative, then we could start to really, you can just grow from all of those little steps you take and ultimately you create something that’s fantastic.

Janice:

But yeah, I want that to be something that we look at. Tell me something you did that had never been done before. And then, “oh, by the way, did it work?” But that’s an “oh, by the way,” right? You just want to encourage the behavior that lets people know that you’re going to celebrate that, the effort versus only celebrating the outcome. One of my favorite necklaces somebody gave me has just got a little hundred percent on it, and it’s based on that Wayne Gretzky quote, “You miss a hundred percent of the shots you never take.” And I wear that so often because I’m like, “Okay, just remember you miss a hundred percent of the shots you never take.” And that should be celebrated.

Adam Morgan:

Yeah. That’s fair. And I guess it also is, it’s not that we’re saying it’s okay to fail at everything. Like if it was your normal job and you’re just failing everything, you’re failing.

Janice:

Yeah.

Adam Morgan:

It’s really about failing on the things that are new and different.

Janice:

Yeah. Versus the things that you truly are failing at that you’re spinning as successes.

Adam Morgan:

Exactly.

Janice:

That’s the difference.

Adam Morgan:

Fake failure.

Janice:

Yeah.

Adam Morgan:

All right.

Janice:

I want real failure.

Adam Morgan:

Yeah. I want you to really just [inaudible 00:22:32].

Janice:

That’s right. And then it’ll give you a great story to tell so you could be an authentic leader.

Adam Morgan:

There you go. As long as you warm them up and tell them you’re out. [crosstalk 00:22:41] Yeah, there we go. All right, let’s go into the last one. Can we disagree? I want people to give me new ideas and leaders say, “Hey, share your opinions and we can disagree on things and that’s okay.” So tell us why you think that’s not true.

Janice:

I very rarely see, and this is in multiple companies, where there’s a real comfort in speaking truth to power. And I think you see that across leadership overall. I think we’ve seen that clearly in politics. I think we’ve seen it in company leadership as well. And I don’t know if, how much is on the leader versus how much is on the team, but it’s not very often that people genuinely feel comfortable speaking truth to power. And when that happens, I think you’ve got to think about as a leader, how you receive that in order to be able to encourage it more. I had an old boss and he was terrible boss, but he said something that struck me and has stayed with me for a long time. And he said, “If two people have the same opinion one of you is unnecessary.”

Janice:

And I was like, “that’s really true.” You have to recognize as a leader, what your strengths are and where you’re not strong and bring people in that aren’t like you, but are very different from you in order that you can have a real kind of collective, whole strategy moving forward. And bringing those people in who have a different point of view and who are, have different set of experiences and who aren’t afraid to speak truth to power or the folks who are really going to be the game changers, so long as they do it respectfully and obviously with a constructive motivation, it’s going to work out so much better. But there are really a lot of people who are just very uncomfortable speaking truth to power and I think it holds a lot of marketers back.

Janice:

I think it’s why a lot of marketing teams end up being to some degree order takers like, “Oh, sales executive, you want to do that? All right, let me make it happen. Oh, you want to do an event? Should I order the chicken or the fish? Should I do the Marriott or the DoubleTree?”. That’s what ends up happening versus leaders and particularly those in marketing who are comfortable being advisors and sometimes being an advisor means you have to speak truth to power. And I know I really value that, when folks who have worked for me do that because it’s made me better. It’s given me like an opportunity to see something differently from somebody who thinks very differently from me. And, I hope it’s also made me kind of a better support system to the company that I’m working for when I’m willing to kind of push back and question things and say, “I don’t agree with that necessarily, and here’s the way I see it.” Ultimately the boss wins, but I think those who speak truth to power really have an opportunity to move the needle more than others.

Adam Morgan:

But like you said, it’s not easy. I mean, let’s be fair. You come from an Italian family. Right, and we were talking about that earlier. It’s a little easier, just the way you were raised to just speak up and speak your mind right? Not everyone’s like that.

Janice:

I remember the first boyfriend I brought to dinner. It was like a Christmas Eve dinner and he wasn’t Italian. And I brought him to Christmas Eve and afterwards, he was like, “Why is everybody mad at each other? Why is your whole family fighting?” And I was like, “What are you talking about? Nobody was fighting. They just yell past the crab sauce. That’s just the way we go.” So yeah, there’s not a lot of hesitancy, obviously in the way I was brought up and there’s different ways to kind of speak truth to power. But, I remember I was interviewing for a job once and obviously the person with whom I was interviewing had a difficult reputation.

Janice:

I didn’t get the job, but she said, “what happens if you disagree with me?” And I said, “Well, I’d tell you, I’m going to state my case. I’m going to lay it all out. And then, if you still disagree you win.” But that’s kind of the rules of the game. I think you at least have to be willing to state your case and explain why you think differently. And like I said, ultimately, the boss is going to win if they disagree with you, but, putting it out there is only going to make things better. So yeah, it is a hard thing to do, but I think if you get it right, you make yourself a lot more valuable than the ‘yes’ people.

Adam Morgan:

And how much disagreement is good? I mean, obviously there’s a lot in the media day of like introverts versus extroverts, but it’s also we can talk about people who avoid confrontation and people who are fine with confrontation. You know, how much is good, where’s the right appropriate amount of a level of disagreement and then when it’s gone too far?

Janice:

I think that there should always be a healthy amount of friction within a team. I’m already seeing in my new job where that healthy friction lies and I’m like, “Nah, that’s a good thing. It’s a good thing.” Obviously you can tell when it gets to be toxic and when there’s not necessarily disrespect involved and you’ve crossed the line. But I think there’s always got to be some healthy friction. I knew that there was one woman who worked for me at SAP. It was like five minutes after she started working for me, she would disagree or at least question some things. And I would throw myself in front of a bus for her. She made us better and she was respectful and fun and funny about it, but she didn’t hold back and she was not necessarily a very senior marketer,

Janice:

But, Wow did I just respect her from the get go and she made me better. There’s somebody else who worked for me at IBM. And he was a total introvert, just not somebody who was the most likely to speak up. He’s also a different thinker from me. I’m somebody who’s like knee jerk reaction and then I’ll change it 10 times. He’s somebody who’s just a lot more thoughtful and cerebral and it would be great because it would be like hours after the meeting. And then I would just, he would pop into my office or send an email and have a completely different point of view. And it was brilliant. And he had his, he did it in his way versus, the way maybe my uncle Rocco would have done it at Christmas Eve dinner.

Janice:

But, it was just as valuable, it was authentic to who he was and he changed things. He made us better and he did it in his way where it was in his comfort zone. But I think if you really leave the door open for that, and if the folks who do speak truth to power, see the leader actually changing their mind and rethinking things as a result, it invites more of that, which leads to that creative tension and friction that I think you need. Because again, if everybody agrees, a bunch of you are unnecessary.

Adam Morgan:

Yeah. And when you talk about this creative tension, I think that’s totally appropriate. And not just, speaking up to a boss, but also relationships like an agency speaking back to the brand. I’ve, found that if there’s an agency that is just never going to fight back and just “Yes, sir. Yes, sir, yes Mam.”

Adam Morgan:

If there’s an agency that is just never going to fight back, and just, Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, ma’am, after a while you’re done, that’s just production. You want that healthy amount of tension, not too much. If you’re combative and you make it personal, that’s one thing, but if you’re passionate about the work, and you’re just going to keep pushing on those things to try and get better. Yes, absolutely. Whatever that relationship is, agency, team, whatever. Even if it’s not your team, you’re just…

Janice:

Well, the reason you’ve hired an agency is because you need somebody who’s smarter and better than you at doing something. So, if you don’t really recognize that agency for all of the reasons that you’ve hired them and they’re paying them a ton of money. You’re not getting your money’s worth. Right?

Adam Morgan:

Yeah.

Janice:

And, I think it’s the same kind of thing. The agency can push back. The agency can tell you what they believe, and ultimately, it’s going to be the customer’s always right. But you should be on the record in terms of being that advisor that the business needs. I think some of probably the most creative campaigns that have come out of agencies, haven’t been drummed up by the customer.

Adam Morgan:

And you know what? So, the next place this makes me think is, all right, so we’re not telling everyone to go out, and just be difficult, and go crazy, and just have different ideas. But, I had a boss once that taught me a valuable insight. And he said, “Adam, when we are disagreeing, let’s debate it, and debate it, and debate it. But once I make a decision, then fall in line.”

Janice:

I love it.

Adam Morgan:

And I thought that’s pretty valuable because it’s like, debate it, and if they listen to you, she hears you, great. But if they still make the final decision that’s different than what you want, then you have to stop. Don’t keep digging at that scab. Don’t keep trying to push your way, or go back and be grumpy, and fight with other people and try and start a coup. That’s not what it’s all about. Be above board, disagree by being passionate about it, and then fall in love after that.

Janice:

Exactly. I love that. I love that. And, I remember you saying that, yeah. That whole idea about disagree, and then fall in love, because then we’re ultimately all in the same team. But it’s… You know what you have to do, is you always have to keep in mind, I am in service of the company that I work for. A, I always want to make my boss look good. B, I always want to make my team successful, but ultimately I want to make the company, for whom I’m working, the most successful. And I think if you’re all in service of the success of the company, that’s when you’ve got that healthy, creative tension and that friction, because you’re all doing it for all the right reasons. It’s not self-serving, it’s not sucking up, it’s not to make yourself look good, but you just have to believe.

Janice:

I remember my sister saying this to me, and she’s ridiculously successful. And more so than I am, so she obviously knew what she was talking about. And she said, “Look, your job is to make your boss look good.” And she said that a long time ago. And I feel like that’s another piece of advice I’ve never forgotten. But, if your job is to make your boss look good, then sometimes you have to speak truth to power. And, it’s in service of your boss’, your manager’s success, or it’s in service of your company’s success. And with that as kind of an altruistic goal, you can do the right thing, and you’re going to do it in the right way.

Adam Morgan:

Well, it’s been awesome. And we’ve talked about the three big lies, and I think the big takeaway here is, it’s not that these three topics are things you just avoid. It’s just saying them the right way. You don’t give lip service and say, “Yeah, disagree with me. It’s okay to fail, be authentic.” And then not follow through with it. I think the answer is, be real with all of these things and do it in the right way so that these are benefits to the team, not just lip service.

Janice:

The objective is to make those three lies my leaders told me, not lies.

Adam Morgan:

Yeah. Truths.

Janice:

To be truths. Yes. The objective is to make them truths. And if you can make them truth, I think you can be somebody that inspires people. And that’s ultimately what you want to do as a leader is inspire people.

Adam Morgan:

Well, any final advice on how you can be a leader that doesn’t lie. How do you… Can you be a leader that actually speaks truth and actually follows through with it?

Janice:

I think it goes to the same sort of role that I like to follow in terms of the marketing activities that I’m trying to encourage as well. And it’s to just, to not necessarily… Everybody has a different persona at work, and at home, and at play. And I certainly don’t get angry with people I work with, like I do at my teenage daughters. Right. There’s obviously there’s difference. But, what you also have to recognize is that you never turn the human off. And I’ve been telling people that on my team when we come up, when I see a terrible… When I see an email campaign and I’m like really? Does anybody want more emails? Or would you open that email? Or would you attend that event? Or would you do this? Would you do that? And it’s like, well, no.

Janice:

So that person who was just, sucked into the TikTok vortex and binge-watching The Handmaid’s Tale is that same person who comes to work, or who is your customer. And so I just always think don’t turn the human off and don’t assume that anybody else did. And I think if you reflect that kind of person who inspires you as a human, and you try to be that kind of person for your team and for your co-workers, then I think you’re going to do the right thing. I think it’s thinking when you have to be something that you’re not naturally, that you get sucked into bad behavior versus just being the kind of human at work that inspires you as a human. And then he treats you and engages you as a human, right?

Adam Morgan:

That’s the summary of all of this just don’t turn the human off.

Janice:

Don’t turn the human off. Nobody turns the human off. If you don’t like to look at 111 PowerPoint slides with 7.5. Neither is anybody else. And it’s the same thing when you come to work as a leader. If you don’t want to hear somebody spinning bangs in a way that aren’t true, or that aren’t inspiring real creativity and changing the trajectory of your business, then you can’t be that person either.

Adam Morgan:

No, that’s great. That’s a good place to end. Don’t turn the human off.

Janice:

Don’t turn the human off.

Adam Morgan:

And you’ll make sure all the other things ring true. So I love it.

Janice:

Exactly. See, I come up with all my mantra while I’m on with you Adam.

Adam Morgan:

Yeah. Just think of pressure. Well, Janice, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful conversation. Hopefully everyone else out there learned a lot about how to be a great leader and how to not turn the human off. But let’s just end here and I’d love you to tell where can people find you if they want to follow up or follow you or listen to more great nuggets of advice?

Janice:

Well, don’t put the pressure on for me to come up with more nuggets. But you can find me on LinkedIn. That’s probably the easiest place. And hopefully there’s a lower third or something where people could see how my name is spelled. Cause my parents misspelled my first name and my last name isn’t easy. But you can find me easily on LinkedIn. And I’m in a race to have more connection than another friend of mine. So I’ll accept all the connections and I’ll respond to any email, any messages through LinkedIn as well.

Adam Morgan:

Well perfect. Okay. Everyone help Janice beat her friend with LinkedIn followers. So let’s get going.

Janice:

Exactly. Thank you. I will lead. I’m very competitive.

Adam Morgan:

No. Excellent. Well, thank you everyone for so much, for listening and joining us here today. As always, you can find us at realcreativeleadership.com. You can find me at adamwmorgan.com. Thestokegroup.com is where you can get help from if you need to scale or get some more creative juices into your flow. They’re awesome partner in making this happen. So all the different ways that you can reach us. Again, if you liked this content, you like this session, please like, follow, give good feedback, good reviews, share it with a friend. That’s the big ask. Just to help us grow this community. We appreciate you listening in and until next episode we’ll see you later. Thank you.

Adam Morgan:

Thanks for listening to real creative leadership. I’m your host, Adam Morgan. And this series was brought to you by The Stoke Group. For the most effective marketing use both sides of your brain to align your strategy, creative execution, and analysis. Connect with The Stoke Group for help designing each step of your marketing plan and creating a coherent vision. Visit thestokegroup.com to learn more.