Talking Khaki
Learn how and when to start speaking business.

As a creative leader, you now have a lot of new hats. Not only that, but you have new, non-creative peers. This means you need to learn how to talk business in business terms — or “talk khaki” as Adam Morgan calls it — to make sure everyone understands you and how you represent your creative team.

Talking khaki means you know how to convey your ideas and needs effectively to your higher-ups and your business peers — in a way that helps them see the value of your creative input. Watch this episode of Real Creative Leadership to learn more about how to and when to speak business.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

  • The four business departments where you’ll need to talk khaki
  • The best methods and materials to help you learn the language
  • Why understanding your organization’s business is foundational to business language
  • How talking khaki will help you better manage up and sideways

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Transcript

Adam Morgan:

Hello, you're listening to Real Creative Leadership and I'm your host, Adam Morgan, executive creative director at Adobe. At Real Creative Leadership, it's all about talking about the day-to-day things that creative leaders need to be successful. Not just how to get a seat at the table, but what do you do once you get it? What are the things we do as leaders to create the right environment, to build better teams, to help elevate the level of creativity at all of our companies?

Adam Morgan:

So today, we have a fun topic. Today, we are going to be talking “khaki”. Now, when I say “talking khaki”, some of you may not understand what that means. Back in the old days of business, we used to talk about talking “suits”, because everyone would wear a suit, but today, people aren't wearing business suits anymore, they're wearing business casual. And often that involves khakis. Not necessarily pleated khakis, but khakis. So as creatives, we usually don't wear those outfits. We're more in jeans or shorts or flip flops, or whatever it may be, your choice of clothes.

Adam Morgan:

But when we're talking about talking khaki, it means, how do we talk business? As you grow in creative leadership, it's no longer just about creative skills. It's not just about how well you design or write or whatever it may be. But as a leader, you have to learn all the different skills in business. And we're going to talk about those today, not necessarily in deep, deep depth, but at least give you the basics of several aspects of talking khaki.

Adam Morgan:

So, here's what I'm going to do. First, we're going to talk about why. Why do we need to learn business speak? How important is this? And we're going to go through the reasons why. And then second, I'm going to talk to you about the four different categories of speaking khaki. What are the different ways that we need to learn and grow and be able to express ourselves in different languages in order to speak with business leaders and marketing leaders, and IT leaders and financial leaders? And then finally, after that, I'm going to talk about how do you learn to speak khaki? Because it's not enough to just say, "Oh, you have to go out there and learn it." But where do you start? What do you do? So I'm going to give you a few tips and tricks of places you can go to learn how to speak khaki.

Adam Morgan:

All right, so let's get back to... All right, why, why do we need to speak khaki? So the way I usually like to talk about this is in three different ways. As you become a creative leader, it's no longer... Most of us think as we step into leadership roles, it's all about managing down, right? It's about managing our team, but there are three different ways. You have to manage down, you have to manage sideways, and you have to manage up. And speaking khaki is really, really important in terms of both managing sideways and up, but it still is important for managing down. And here's why. So for managing down, it's really, really important for you to create that right environment for your team, right? You have to translate all of the stuff that comes from the top or sideways. You have to translate that into real goals, turn all that business stuff and be able to speak it back to your team and say, "Here's why you're creating this experience." Or, "Here's why you're making this content, because of these goals." So that's speaking down.

Adam Morgan:

Speaking sideways is all about your peers, right? And most often, that involves marketing strategists. So you have to partner with strategists and marketers, and the only way to compromise and grow and build the right team is to be on the same side as them, and to get on the same side, you have to be able to speak their language. You have to understand what their goals are, what they're trying to get, what they're trying to do in order for you to say, "Okay, here's how creativity is going to help that. Here's how we're going to partner with you and become strategic partners, and build great creative experiences that align to all of your marketing goals."

Adam Morgan:

And then finally, managing up. So why do we need to do this? Because if you have to get approvals from the board, you have to understand what their business needs are. You have to make sure that your creativity and your vision aligns with their business strategy. And you have to be able to work with them, otherwise, they're just not going to fund you, you'll have no budget, you'll have no approvals. So it's really, really important that you share your creative vision up to the board of directors. You show your team and you understand what they're talking about, and learn to speak khaki so that you can relate to them and they can trust you. That's really, really important. So, if you don't succeed with the board, you will have no way to prove your success, you'll have no way to show through their numbers, why things are working, and then you'll basically fail. So it's really, really important. That's the why. Down, sideways, and up, you have to learn to speak khaki.

Adam Morgan:

All right, so let's talk about what is khaki now. I'm going to spend the next little while explaining the four different areas. Really, when I say “speaking khaki”, it is a mix, it's a mix of marketing strategy, business strategy, finance, and operations. Those are the four big ones. Of course, there's more beyond that, but those are the four I'm going to focus on today.

Adam Morgan:

So as a leader, you have to assume all of those roles. I know for most of us growing up in our careers, it was all about great design or great writing, or video, or whatever it may be. But once you change and you take that step into a creative director role or creative leadership role, you have to learn all these other things. Just as being a good creative director, you had to learn all aspects of design, writing, video, everything, in order to be a great leader so you could guide all of that, you also have to learn all the other stuff. So, sorry to say it, but you're now a project manager, an operations person, you're a finance person, you're a business leader, you're all of those things. You're a marketer or a strategist. You have to learn all of these things in order to succeed.

Adam Morgan:

So, there's a fun story. A few episodes ago, Douglas Davis gave us a fun story about, when he started out in the business and was moving up into bigger and bigger opportunities to present and show work, he noticed that he would step in the room and there was something that was always beating him. And he finally figured out that that was strategy. And once he understood that, then he went back and actually got a degree in strategy, wrote a book on it. But he had to first identify the thing that was beating him all the time. And that was strategy, whether that's business or marketing strategy. And so I think that's just a good primer for all of us to know, like, before you can write the rules, you have to read the rules, right? That's a really, really important concept. So right now, we're just going to talk about reading the rules, not writing them. So let's go through those four different categories.

Adam Morgan:

So first category, marketing strategy. And I'm just going to go through things that I've learned, or just big categories. I hope that you find some nugget in all this, but the point is for me just to highlight a few processes, strategies, books, concepts, just to... I'm not going to dig in deep on any one concept, but I'm just going to go through a whole bunch of them. And then later on, as you listen to this, just pick out the few that you think, "Oh, I can learn a little bit more about that, or I need to brush up on that." And I think that's the point of this session, is just to get through the breadth of all these different things.

Adam Morgan:

So, marketing. If you're learning to speak marketing, and it's the world of data and metrics and strategies and planning...Starting out, early on it was the 4P's: product, promotion, place, and price. All marketers had to figure out, how do I understand those different things? How do I know how to market a product? How do I promote the product? Where's the right place, the channels, the right places to reach my audience, and then how do I price it all out? But I think that was more of... It's still valid. It's totally valid, but there's the new model. And if any of you have ever heard of the IMC process...so it's the Integrated Marketing Communications process, and it was started by... There's a great book, if you want to read, IMC, The Next Generation by Heidi and Don Schultz. And they walked through all the steps in today's modern marketing flow, and that's really about identifying your customers from behavioral data. So you really have to understand your data programs, how you ingest data, where you get it from, not just web data, or maybe it's onsite data, but...

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:08:04]

Adam Morgan:

But behavioral data, what are your customers doing and why? And you could get that through a variety of methods.

Adam Morgan:

Next, after you've got the data and you know who your customer is, it's financial value. You have to determine, "Okay, as I've segmented my groups into different audiences, which one has the most value? Which one is my key audience that I need to go after?" Because you can't boil the ocean. So it's finding and determining financial value.

Adam Morgan:

Next, once I have those models in place, I need to create and deliver content to them. I need to create content that has value. And I need to create content that will show up on the channels that my audience frequents, or ways to find my audience and deliver that content. And once you've done that and delivered it all, now you have to estimate ROI. So there are a lot of formulas out there, from MROI to ROI, to however you like to figure out your funnel, and figure out the metrics that are going to show success for delivering content to that audience.

Adam Morgan:

And then finally, how do you evaluate budgets and plans, and optimize? I mean, that's a really critical step in the IMC process of, now going back and saying, "Do I need more or less money? Where do I put the money? What are my plans?" All of that stuff. In fact, that leads to the next step. As I've worked with a lot of strategists, it's not just one goal. It's really like a whole marketing plan.

Adam Morgan:

Starting at the top. What are the plans? What are the big goals that I'm going after? From there, what are my strategies, my tactics? And then the hopeful outcomes. And those documents are huge. And there are a lot of steps involved with it, and research and really figuring it out. And you can get all of that from that IMC process, but you need to put together a big marketing plan. So as a creative leader, do you understand the marketing plan of your peers? Do you understand all of their goals and tactics?

Adam Morgan:

A lot of times in selling creative work for me, it's always been great to say, "Okay, I know what those goals and tactics are. And then I'm going to relate those over to creative execution, and show how that creativity is going to help with those tactics and plans and strategies."

Adam Morgan:

Another thing in speaking marketing is understanding your customer journey. Do you know ... not just identifying the customer in the beginning, but what are the paths that they take? What are all the channels they frequent? What are the ways that they're going to go from, discover content, through evaluate and purchase, and then post-purchase content? What is that journey? And no two journeys are alike. And so it's like, what's unique to your company? What do your strategists and partners use as their framework to say, "Okay, here are the gaps. Here's the content we need to create. And we need to make sure we create the right content for that entire journey from the beginning to end."

Adam Morgan:

All right, so that was just a taste of marketing strategies. When you're speaking khaki with marketers, those are the types of things you need to understand. And if you can't strategize, and you can't show market value, then you just become a set of hands to them. You have to be able to speak that language, understand it, and be able to talk to it so that you can be on the same page as them and be peers. This is peer speak, right? Talking khaki to your peers. And so, no one wants to just be a cost center. Creatives don't like being a set of hands. And so the way you graduate and move your team away from that is understanding all of this, and then being able to speak to it and show value, and show how you're partnering on all of that.

Adam Morgan:

In fact, we have a whole separate session on, how do you transform your team? We just launched it a few weeks ago. How do you transform your team from a “ticket taker” team to a strategic partner? And a lot of it has to do with speaking khaki to your peers.

Adam Morgan:

All right, next: business strategy. So now this is speaking khaki up. Some of the things that have helped me understand business strategy...To start first, there is an awesome book called “The Discipline of Market Leaders” by Treacy and Wiersema. So this is a book that ... it's several years old. It's been around for a while, but it's still the golden standard. In their book, they talk about, there are only three different types of business strategy when you boil it all down to the basics.

Adam Morgan:

There are hundreds of different business strategy plans, but they put them into these three categories. And that's operational excellence, number one, meaning, it's all about making your supply chain and your delivery chain super optimized. And it's not about anything more than just price. You're going to make it super efficient and fast. Things like ... I guess we could argue what fits in operational excellence, but like, a Walmart where it's, like, they're not trying to become a brand that's all about lifestyle or something else. It's just saying, "We're going to give you all the stuff you need at a great price."

Adam Morgan:

The second category is customer intimacy. And that's really... a lot of brands fall in this category that are very custom brands that are trying to build a great relationship with the customer. Like a very custom bike shop, they're customer intimacy. They want to have you come in. They don't want you to buy the bike from an operational excellent company like Walmart. They want you to come in, they're going to fit it to you. They're going to figure out how you fit the right bike and all the different needs that you have and create a relationship. So customer intimacy is all about building those relationships with customers and then delivering high-end value on that.

Adam Morgan:

And the third one is product innovation. Product innovation, a lot of tech companies fall into this category, where it's all about, we go out and do research and get engineers and really smart people to create things that are just super innovative and super awesome, so that you'll just come and want to use those tools or those products. Period. Like my company, Adobe, is a product innovation company.

Adam Morgan:

So anyhow, those are the three basic three business strategies. Beyond that, there are other things that are really important to understand, starting with brand positioning and pivoting. If you haven't read the book “Positioning” by Trout and Ries, go read the book. Or they also have a second derivative book called “The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing”. They break down just the age-old principle of positioning. In customer's minds, there's only categories for the market leader, the second, and then maybe third. And beyond that, there's nothing. And so how do you reposition yourself and create new categories? How do you position yourself against the competition? How do you create an opportunity for your business to be successful without all of the roadblocks that you'll hit, if you're not a market leader or the runner up or whatever?

Adam Morgan:

So go read “Positioning”. Super, super critical. And when you understand positioning, you can better understand the sense of ... which takes me to the next step, which is, business differentiation. So a lot of business strategists are really trying to say, "How are we different than the competition? What do we do that's unique? What is our USP? What are our opportunities that they can't get anywhere else?" Is it maybe a strategy of comprehensive, like we cover all the bases? Or is it a strategy of a very niche product? Or is it a strategy of convenience? There's so many things that you have to figure out about your differentiation and your market focus because it's unique to your business.

Adam Morgan:

Another thing that's really important to learn, what is the leadership DNA of your board? If you really go back and look at the board of directors, what are their backgrounds? Are they in finance? Are they in operations? Understanding what their backgrounds are and how that board is built really makes a big difference on what business strategy they're going to use.

Adam Morgan:

For example, if they're all finance people or operations, chances are, they're probably going to be pushing towards an operational excellence model. And you can see this as you look and understand those things at play, and you look at companies like, oh, okay, Gap used to be customer intimacy. And then it was purchased by Old Navy, which is an operational excellent model. And then they started to put those same constraints because the board's like, "We know what works, it's this. Let's make this other brand work the same way." And you can see how they hit walls.

Adam Morgan:

Now, Gap is bringing it back and they're trying to go back to that customer intimacy model, but just understanding the board of directors, understanding where they come from. In fact, part of our goal here at Real Creative Leadership is, I believe that creative leaders should be on those boards. I mean, if you have a brand that's either customer intimacy or product innovation, then creativity will play a huge role in your business strategy.

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:16:04]

Adam Morgan:

And so all of us need to understand that and learn that and be able to use those tools, so we can show the value to the board and other leaders, so they can see why creativity needs to be on the board. Now, there's been a lot of great work over the years to help get us a seat at the table. When I say “the table”, I mean the leadership table, but not necessarily the board table. There's still a lot of work. In fact, I have another session coming up in the future that's all about creative careers, and what do you do beyond the role of creative director and how do you move past that? So, getting more of us in seats of the board, such as CMO or even CEO, there is good news that a lot of creatives are breaking off and starting companies and their startups, that are creative-led, but we need more of it in this world.

Adam Morgan:

We need more of it. So understanding business strategy is critical, because at the end of the day, if you can't get the approvals, if you can't sell the board, if you can't prove to them why creativity matters and why creativity is better for that business, then you're done. Then creativity is just going to be window dressing. So it's critical, critical, critical to speak khaki at a business level.

Adam Morgan:

Next is finance. All right, so why do we need to know finance? It's so funny, in my experience, in my career, many times the second we start talking numbers, the creative people just roll their eyes back and they zone out, right? And that's bad, because there's a lot of important stuff that we need to know about finance in order to be creative leaders. First of all, there's a great story from one of my past bosses, who is the owner of an agency, Dave Thomas.

Adam Morgan:

And he would say, how... Number one, before you do any creative work, you need to understand how your client or how your business makes money. Period. If you don't understand how your company makes money, you're not going to be able to create a vision that delivers success. That helps drive more business success through creativity. So you have to know how it makes money, and then you can't deliver creative ideas that are completely off the farm, ideas that may be fun and exciting, but aren't going to deliver a business value. So how does your company make money? If you don't know that, stop and think about it and truly internalize that as you start to lead your team.

Adam Morgan:

There are other things that are important. As a creative, do you understand the balance sheet? Do you understand the income statement? Do you understand the role of cashflow? For me, I took a graduate level course on finance in order to understand all of those things better, so I can better relate to your CFO or the financial team, right? You have to be able to understand the flow of money, not just how you make money, but the flow of money, in order to speak their language, so that you can show value, right? There are things like resource allocation and ROI measurement, MROI is another one, or your sales funnel. How does that all work together? Especially again, if you're in B2B, you have to understand that lead management flow, from qualified leads all the way through to sale, understanding that how you measure and the metrics to measure success are critical because if they keep measuring... Let's say, for example, you're all about quality instead of speed or time, like those are the three values that we're always trying to prove out.

Adam Morgan:

We either have to be faster or we have to be cheaper, or we have to have better quality. And if you're pushing for better quality, and yet you can't prove those metrics out to finance, they're always going to go with cheaper, and you're going to get pushed again and again and again, to just make it cheaper or faster, right? So when you understand those values and how they impact your balance sheet, then you have the ammo to go back and prove your point and to show why creativity has value. Why it impacts the bottom line. Super critical. And why does that matter? Because again, it's funding. If you don't prove that out, you're not going to get budget. You're not going to get approval. You'll just be fighting and kicking against a wall constantly and never getting enough money to do the right creative work. So you have to partner with your CFO, and show your vision and be able to prove it out and speak their language as a financial person.

Adam Morgan:

All right, number four. Operations. And this is a... This one's actually closer to home than some of those others. This is another “sideways”. So if business strategy and finance are more like managing “up”, marketing strategy and operations are more sideways and down. So with operations, even though you didn't want to, as a creative person, you are now a project manager. You have to understand operations. You have to understand workflow. What are the right tools we use? Again, we talk about measurement. What about budget spend? Once you get the approvals and the budgets from finance, how do you use that and spend that wisely? So budget spend. Resourcing, not just resourcing of the team, resourcing of other assets or budget, or whatever else it may be.

Adam Morgan:

And then priorities. A big part of operations is establishing priorities. What are the... What's the backbone or the structure we create as a team or an organization to get work done? And how do we make that efficient so that we're not stepping on each other and causing our own problems? Some of those things that are good for you to know, like how well do we understand project management platforms or the tools? There could be simple ones like Basecamp or Monday, or ones that are a little more in depth, like Jira or Workfront.

Adam Morgan:

You may come... If you're trying to work with your web team, what tools are they using? If you're trying to work with your marketing team, how are they putting in requests? How are all those things coming together to create an environment and a workflow that works for everyone, and is clear and labeled and works well? Because if not... If all of that operational stuff doesn't work, then you're just going to be stuck. You're going to hit the walls. And when you're dealing with things like content velocity, where you have to create... Your team has to create hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of different assets to fit on all these channels in different shapes and sizes, you're going to be hosed, unless you can get that all working in a good flow.

Adam Morgan:

All right, so those are the four categories, marketing strategy, business strategy, finance, and operations. Those are the four areas you need to learn to speak khaki, as we put it. And then now the big question as we're wrapping this up, is how? How do you learn all this stuff? I don't know if I have the perfect answer, but I'm going to give you four categories or ways that I've learned to speak khaki a little bit better.

Adam Morgan:

First step is exposure. Just like Douglas Davis in the beginning, you've got to find the meetings. You've got to find the right places where you can listen and you can focus and understand, what are all these things? If... Don't hide in your cave, don't just stick with creative stuff, get invited to a meeting where they're going to talk about the sales numbers and the sales funnel. Just listen. Just get exposure. You'll hear so many acronyms. And you'll be like, “Whoa, why did I even go? How do I even understand all of these?” But at least go there and get exposure. If you don't... If you can't get exposure in that meeting, go talk to different leaders in your company and just sit down and say, "Hey, tell me, how do I do this?"

Adam Morgan:

And that leads us to the second way you can learn all this, is mentoring. Go get a mentor. Get someone who's in finance. Someone who's a leader. Whether it's your company or another company, or a friend, or an acquaintance, whatever it may be. Part of being a good leader is building your personal board of directors. And so you need to have people on your personal board of directors that have expertise in those areas, in finance, in leadership, in business strategy, in marketing strategy. Surround yourself with the right people, and talk to them. Set up a separate one-on-one and just ask questions and have them explain some things to you. I guarantee, a 10 minute session with them will teach you so much that you wouldn't get normally exposed to in a day-to-day setting in your role. So take advantage of that.

Adam Morgan:

All right. Number three. There... Classes. Online learning. There are so many ways out there for you to learn. Higher education, examples a good step. Even though I had a great successful career in creativity as a creative director, I went back and got a master's degree in integrated marketing strategy. And I know it's not going to necessarily impact my role. I'm not going to become necessarily a marketer, a strategist, whatever, I don't know, maybe. But it certainly helped me completely understand the lay of the land and be able to speak khaki with all my partners and leaders. And it's not like they suddenly go, "Oh, well, that person knows how to speak khaki. I totally get it." It just, it blends in it. It just feels like, "Oh, you get them, you understand them, and you build trust so much faster." So higher education, a great way.

Adam Morgan:

Online, think of how many different platforms there are out there, from Lynda to LinkedIn Learning. There's so many ways that you can just, instead of spending an afternoon watching another sitcom, sit down and just watch a video on marketing strategy. Watch a video on how to figure out MROI. Some of those things may seem terrible and lame, but they will help you. They will help you as a creative leader. I guarantee it.

Adam Morgan:

Beyond that, podcasts. Just you listening right now to Real Creative Leadership is phenomenal. And I'm trying to bring you exposure to new ideas. That's another thing. Listen to your favorite podcast, get out there and watch webinars. Sign up for a webinar that just seems weird or go to an event. There's so many events. Like at Adobe, we have Adobe Summit in the spring and Adobe MAX in the fall. MAX is where you're going to get all of this stuff about creativity, where you're going to learn everything from Photoshop to video editing to whatever, but maybe one year try Adobe Summit. That's all about marketing and marketing strategy and learning sales funnels, tactics, and how do I use different products to manage all of my marketing assets, or blah, blah, blah? All of that. So try something. Go to a different class when you're at one of those events. Webinars are another great thing. Just get on LinkedIn and you will see posts constantly about webinars. I'm doing them all the time too. That's just the way to learn and get exposure and understand more stuff.

Adam Morgan:

And then finally, the fourth category, books. As you can tell, I love books. There are a lot of books. My saying is, if you want to lead, you have to read. And there are so many books. I mentioned just a few here, from business strategy to marketing strategy. I send out a book list at the end of every year of a whole bunch of cool books that I've read or I've been exposed to. So start reading.

Adam Morgan:

I actually watched a cool TED Talk just last night, that was all about if you want to make a big change, just try incremental, little teeny steps. Maybe it's just saying, "I'm going to read one chapter or one paragraph." Just start with one paragraph. "I'm going to read one paragraph of a marketing book or a business strategy book or something every night and just see what happens." So start there. That's a great way to start. So books, books, books. Love it.

Adam Morgan:

All right, well, thank you. That's all I had for today is, at least just getting our feet wet, talking about all the different ways we can speak khaki. And next episode, we're actually going to invite a special guest and we're going to talk khaki with the CMO of BlueJeans. See what we did there? Get it? We're going to speak khaki with BlueJeans. So John Knightly, he's the CMO of BlueJeans, and that's a company that's all about communication. And he and I are going to talk about his personal experience, the ways that he has learned to speak with creative people. What are the things that he looks for in terms of what you need to learn so that you can speak with him in order to find success? So, taking everything we just talked about today and putting it in a real world example of, how do you speak khaki with your business partners? Super awesome.

Adam Morgan:

Anyhow, thanks for listening. I hope you got some little nugget you can follow up on or learn more about, I don't know. Go take a class, read a book, go to a webinar, keep listening to Real Creative Leadership. That's another great step, because I really appreciate it. And if you like this content, please, please share. I know this is new. We're only six months into this, but I would love it if you'd share with your friends, your colleagues, your peers, and let's see if we can get more of a conversation going.

Adam Morgan:

In fact, we just recently launched the YouTube version of this. So you can watch ... I know you listen to these on your favorite podcast, Real Creative Leadership, but now there's a channel on YouTube. And the beauty of that is you can watch these videos, you can see my slides, and more importantly, comments. You can start joining the community and commenting and building relationships with other creative leaders. That's one of the problems we have is there's not really a watering hole where all of us creative leaders can get together and talk about topics. So please look at the YouTube channel and comment and join the conversation. Or even better, go to realcreativeleadership.com, that's another way you can find us. Sign up for the next webinar, make sure you're up to date on the latest episodes. We'll just share other links to other speakers and things that we find that are really important. So just help us build this community because it's all about that place. As a creative leader, we need a creative leadership community.

Adam Morgan:

And we have a long way to go. As I was talking about earlier, look at the DNA of the boards of companies. Do we have enough creative leaders on the boards? Are creative leaders just plateauing out of creative director? Are we moving on to CMO, or moving on to CEO? There are a lot of ways that we as creative leaders can help grow this movement. And so let's keep working together. But we have a lot to learn and a lot to do in order to make that a reality. So thank you so much for listening.

Adam Morgan:

Again, this production was brought to us from Stoke, a full service agency in Silicon Slopes. Check out their website. They do a great job of helping me get this all together and get it out to you. So I appreciate their help. And hopefully all of you listening, if you have need for any production for video or any advertising need or marketing need, scale your team with Stoke. They're great.

Adam Morgan:

Thanks for listening. I'm your host Adam Morgan again, and the ways you can find us, again, realcreativeleadership.com. You can find me at adamwmorgan.com. We can learn about speaking engagements, articles that I write, my book, all about proving the value of creativity, all that great stuff. Or go to Stoke, their website, and you can connect with them, but those are the two ways that you can find either Stoke or me. Thanks again for listening on this session about talking khaki. Again, tune into the next one when we talk khaki with BlueJeans CMO, John Knightly. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.

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