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Finding Your Voice as a Creative Leader
November 2, 2022 Brand Leadership Business Growth Career Growth Creative Agency Design Leadership Strategy
Guest Speaker

Liz Oh

Head of Brand Design, Grammarly

Liz Oh is the Head of Brand Design at Grammarly on the Product team. She has nearly 20 years of experience as a designer and a creative leader at studios, agencies, and in-house. She specializes in visual design, experience design, creative direction, design systems, and design ops.

She is passionate about advocating for creatives and developing effective approaches to challenge the status quo. She has been teaching a practicum, Design Systems for Social Change, at CalArts since 2019. She is also a mentor on ADPList, where she supports students, designers, writers, and leaders in tech.

Liz holds a BFA from the Rhode Island School of Design with a distinction for her multidisciplinary studies in Industrial Design and Graphic Design. When she is not designing, thinking about design, talking about design, learning more about design, or building her library of design books, you can find her spending time with her daughter and partner in LA.

A real leader has a voice.

Perspective. Opinion. Whatever you want to call it. Voice isn’t just what makes you unique, it’s what makes you a meaningful creative leader. Discovering and cultivating that voice takes work, but it’s also how you become someone worth listening to. 

In this episode of Real Creative Leadership, Liz Oh, Head of Brand Design at Grammarly, discusses her journey of finding her voice and how it led her to a creative leadership role she wouldn’t have achieved without it. 

Join now to discover the tips and tricks behind Liz’s inspiring process.

Watch this episode to discover:

  • Why a leader’s voice matters
  • What questions to ask yourself about your own voice
  • How to practice using your voice as a leader
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Adam Morgan
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RCL Episode Season 3, Episode 10
Finding Your Voice as a Creative Leader — with Liz Oh
Head of Brand Design, Grammarly

 

Transcript

Adam Morgan:

Hello and welcome, welcome back to Real Creative Leadership. I’m your host, Adam Morgan, and we are excited to dig into this exciting new topic of how to find your voice and vision. So today our special guest is a wonderful human being and I just had so many great conversations with her leading up to this. So I’m so excited for you all to hear her story. So I’d like to introduce to you the Head of Brand Design at Grammarly, Liz Oh. Liz, welcome to the show.

Liz Oh:

Thank you so much, Adam. Thank you for having me.

Adam Morgan:

Yeah, we’re so excited. We’re getting here near the end of season three, which is so interesting. I’d heard that of some podcasts, it’s like most podcasts, like 90%, only get past episode three when they create them, which makes sense because I’ve been a part of a few that have only gone to three. So the fact that we’re like 60-something in, it’s pretty awesome. So I’m excited to have you as part of this journey with us.

Liz Oh:

[inaudible 00:00:56].

Adam Morgan:

Well, let’s just start out. Before we get into our topic of finding your voice, first just give us a little bit of an introduction of you, your background, and how you relate to creativity in this industry, and then we’ll get digging into the topic.

Liz Oh:

Yeah, of course. Well, I started in creativity I would say it was identified when I was probably more in high school, and then eventually I went to Rhode Island School of Design, where I really found myself and really found my community. And once I graduated, I started to work in New York City, where I was able to… it was the early 2000s, there weren’t a lot of opportunities-

Adam Morgan:

Mm-hmm.

Liz Oh:

… for young designers, but I got good internships, I explored different opportunities in any industry that would really take me at the time, and learned a lot from a lot of colleagues and peers and senior people that I had the pleasure of working with. And then I really found myself in New York working at a small studio called PS New York, and that’s where I really learned a lot. The work was really centered around arts, cultural spaces, and non-profits, and I think that really aligned with a lot of the things that I wanted to be doing more of.

After working there for quite some time, I wanted to explore working with different disciplines, with different companies, and went into the agency world, and that’s where I joined mid to large size agencies where I got to work with big clients like IBM, Bloomberg, to name a couple, and really helped shape, whether it be products to brand refreshes, really got to work with a lot of different clients across the board.

And then I moved to LA in 2016 and really tried to explore what it was like out here. I had never left New York City, so I’d been there for 13-plus years, and really tried to explore what the opportunities were here, found myself at RED Interactive Agency working with entertainment clients, and then at Compass, where I led the design team, and I was there for four and a half years, and that was really exciting, I really got to help build the design team, and then I joined Grammarly in November of last year. And I joined because I have been a long-time user of Grammarly and I was really excited because I didn’t really know that much about the design team at the time, and once I got to know the design team, it just seemed like a perfect fit for me.

Adam Morgan:

Well, that’s awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and-

Liz Oh:

Yeah.

Adam Morgan:

… lived experience there with your career. But I actually find it fun that you’re the head design at Grammarly, a product or a technology that helps us with speaking and-

Liz Oh:

Yes.

Adam Morgan:

… voice. But we’re going to be talking about the interesting topic today is: how do you find your voice and how do you understand your-

Liz Oh:

Yeah.

Adam Morgan:

… voice and how do you use your voice? I think a little bit of setup for the users is that we’ve been talking a little bit about how during this pandemic so many things have changed. It used to be it was all in person and so the extroverts ruled the land, and then we moved to this kind of hybrid or actually remote world and it was like all the extroverts were hating it, like me, and all the introverts are loving it because it was all just from your own space, and now it’s going to be hybrid so this is a really good time to understand the balance between those two different personalities and how you can figure out to find your path amid all the chaos of the different voices out there.

So let’s start with that. Early on, when we talked earlier-

Liz Oh:

[inaudible 00:04:59].

Adam Morgan:

… you mentioned that, in the first 10 years of your career, you felt like you didn’t have a voice.

Liz Oh:

Yeah.

Adam Morgan:

Can you explain a little bit more about that?

Liz Oh:

Yeah, absolutely. I was always taught growing up that as long as we were heads down and worked really hard that we would succeed, and coming from a family of hard workers, perfectionists who really did that and pursued the American dream, coming from South Korea, I think that was really ingrained in me. And that is exactly what I did once I started working in New York City. I was really heads down, I really thought doing the work, staying up till midnight, overachieving, or exceeding expectations was really all I needed to do to really be recognized and succeed. I quickly found though that by being silent, by being the one doing the work, not being recognized for the work, letting other people take recognition for the work that I was doing, was really starting to be a disservice not only to myself but it would start to be a disservice to everyone I worked with, and then, ultimately, the client too, whenever it was for client work because if the ideas and the work were being generated by me at the time, even though I was very junior and I was still learning, not having my idea fully recognized or fully heard throughout-

Adam Morgan:

Mm-hmm.

Liz Oh:

… really led to an outcome that wasn’t ideal for anybody and it wasn’t fully solving the problem. And I think that, for me, I just started to see gaps in that, like when I had someone… it’s kind of the game of telephone, things get lost because you’re not speaking up, someone is speaking up for you, and then it’s not quite the idea that you have but you’re kind of running with it. And that’s what ultimately started to happen and I started to recognize that.

I also started to see that it was true that the people that were speaking up were getting recognized for the work and they were being heard and they were being respected in the room. And I think that, for me, that was really hard to do because I didn’t like to speak up, I got very nervous, my voice would shake a lot, and I just thought that, oh, I really wanted the idea or my articulation of the idea to be perfect before I actually said something, and by then it was already too late.

So, for me, it was very much like, “Okay, let’s just keep staying heads down, doing the work, and making sure that I could do the best that I can and hope that someone will recognize me.” And I think I started realize probably maybe my fifth year into working that that probably is not the best way to progress in your career and I started to work on myself and try to figure out ways to present ideas, to articulate ideas in a way that other people would understand, understand how other people spoke, so really practicing active listening and seeing how other people communicated overall. And I think that was really inspiring to me.

And so I did tons of things. I used to walk around in my small apartment in New York City saying things out loud, practicing how I said things in meetings, and making sure, again, that I could speak very confidently about what I was saying and that that would then be heard.

My voice was also very strangely because, on a personal level, it’s never this way, I’m always told that my voice really does extend, but in the professional setting, my voice quite literally was very quiet, it was very hard for me to not just speak up but even just talk. My volume was so low that it was just hard to even get past a whisper, and I think that that in and of itself was something that I really, really did have to work on because, again, I think I recognize that, okay, it didn’t matter how great my work was or the idea was, things were getting lost and, ultimately, I was not growing because I was just in that safe space of being my introverted self, being quite mute, and being quite quiet in a lot of these situations.

Adam Morgan:

I’d love to back up just a little bit because-

Liz Oh:

Yeah.

Adam Morgan:

… there [inaudible 00:09:52] turning point for you. It’s not just over time that you realized-

Liz Oh:

Yes.

Adam Morgan:

… “Ah, I need to be better at this,” and I think a lot of us internally have those kind of wrestling with ourselves.

Liz Oh:

Mm-hmm.

Adam Morgan:

But what was the actual turning point? You told me of a specific moment when a friend made a comment so I’d love to hear that story.

Liz Oh:

Yeah. Yes, I do specifically remember this, it was when it seemed like there had been a pattern in my career where the positions that I was in, and the circumstances that I was in and the teams that I was on, it seemed like the outcome was very similar and sort of my critique back to why it wasn’t a good fit for me was pretty similar too. And then, ultimately, it was a question of like, “Okay, these are different environments, totally different people, different companies, different clients, everything is different, the common denominator here is me so what can I do to figure out and be really, really reflective on what I can do to make sure that I’m doing everything that I can to be honest with myself and really-“

Liz Oh:

I can, to be honest with myself, and really improve. I think for me, it was hard to hear. It wasn’t easy to hear that in all those circumstances, when I realized that it was me and not me speaking up, it was me just hoping again, that people would recognize me, and hoping that I would be heard. That not being clearly communicated me, not being able to articulate that, all of that really added to me being in the same kind of circumstance over and over and over again. Then I think after about three to four times in that circumstance, it was really clear to me that I really needed to figure out a way to find my voice and not in a way that again, mimicked other successful voices necessarily, but find my personal voice, to be able to be seen and heard and to be understood as a creative.

Adam Morgan:

Yeah, that’s perfect. I loved that you mentioned, you would walk around and practice and try and find your voice, but you went even further than that. Tell everyone something about a coach and some other things like that. There was a very deliberate journey that you went through to figure out your path.

Liz Oh:

Yeah, first it was like, okay, is it just presentations? What is it? It was really diagnosing, not diagnosing, it was very specific, I had a plan. I had a plan because I really wanted to become a creative leader and I knew that in order to do so, I needed to work on specific areas. I needed to figure out how to say the things that I needed to say. I really need to understand how to think strategically, for example. I worked with different coaches. I worked on public speaking, really being able to again, hear myself and not cringe every time, but be okay with that, hearing myself.

Then I really worked on everything from written to verbal communication, and really figuring out what kind of style I really wanted to embrace, that meant practicing everywhere I could. That’s one thing. That meant practicing in the car commuting, that meant in the shower, that meant everywhere that I could possibly practice. That meant trying different things, whether it be cue cards, whether it be notes, whether it be practicing, memorizing, whatever it would be. I really ran the gamut of trying to find ways and tools that could help me. That also meant bringing my partner into the conversation and saying things or presenting things and pitching ideas, and then having critiques that way as well.

I think for me, I really tried to start in areas that I felt most safe and then started to branch out in ways that made me feel very uncomfortable. I think the discomfort definitely did change me and helped every single time. Every time I stood up in a room full of people, it made it that much easier every single time. I still do struggle every day, all the time, but I think that overall it has helped me build that confidence.

Adam Morgan:

Two thoughts on that. First of all, I find it fascinating that when you are going through, it’s not just the practicing and the public speaking, but you also mentioned learning more strategic thought ideas, because I think a big part of finding your voice is not just the expression of your voice, but also what do you stand for?

Liz Oh:

Yeah.

Adam Morgan:

What do you believe in, what do you care about, what are the things that you’re passionate about, and that’s got to come through with your voice as well.

Liz Oh:

Yeah, it does. I think the thing that was really good for me was, and I think I mentioned this to you last time as well, was that I really kept a journal of things that resonated with me as a young designer. I kept it in those quiet, darker moments where I was staying up really late at night, working on things.

I remember keeping a journal of things that were hard and challenging for me and things that were experiences that were beacons of light for me, for example, a senior designer pulling me aside and giving me advice on something that was totally unsolicited, things like that, that really did help me, that really started to shape my perspective on what really does work, and wanting to be more like that in my own way.

I think that, that really did start to help me understand, when I see a creative director going to a meeting, and when I was a designer, and really start to present ideas that are full on creative strategy, that really encompass every aspect of the business goals or the outcomes or solving the problem. I think that, that really started to inspire me to figure out, okay, what is that for me and what do I need to do to learn how to really holistically approach it that way myself.

Adam Morgan:

That is an amazing story. Not many of us kept a journal of all of the lessons learned. I would say, not just the good things, but also the bad things that you’ve learned and how to adapt.

Liz Oh:

Yeah.

Adam Morgan:

Maybe tell us a little bit more about that, of the good and the bad, and how that affects you today, when you go back and check your journal for what you thought back then.

Liz Oh:

Yeah. I think the thing that I recognized, is that when you become very senior, I think I recognize this very early on in my career, when you become very senior, it’s very hard. You forget, right, it’s hard to remember what it felt like to be a junior designer and intern. I think having gone through some hard experiences in New York, I think I really didn’t want to forget, if I had the privilege, and this is a big if. At the time there was no sort of guarantee that I would become a creative leader. I think for me, it was very much if I ever make it there, I want to remember what this felt like as a young designer who didn’t know much, who was scared, and really anxious. I think for me, that was really helpful because there were things that did a lot of harm and there were interactions, there were experiences that set me back and brought me down in a way that didn’t help me become who I am today.

Those were all lessons that I learned to overcome, and to remember not to do. If, again, I became a creative leader, not to mimic, or not to do, and to make sure that I don’t behave that way. I think that’s really an important thing, and that’s something that I reference quite often because sometimes there’ll be something happening, and I think in order to build empathy, I do reference it because I really do want to make sure that I’m understanding it from a place of true understanding and true empathy to that person and to younger or more junior creatives.

Adam Morgan:

Well, I’m sure that gives you empathy superpower, this special little notepad that you can go back and reference and be like, how did I go, the rest of us just try and remember, oh yeah, I knew what it was like to be a kid. This is what I cared about, but we’re just going off of old memories. You have a written record of it, which is pretty powerful.

Liz Oh:

Yeah. One of those, I’m sorry, go ahead…

Adam Morgan:

No, no, you go.

Liz Oh:

One of the things that I come back to time and time again, is actually recognition. That has been something that if you look back at that list or the entries that comes up quite a bit, and that was because the times that I did get recognition, obviously it didn’t come from advocating for myself. When I did, it was just quite incredible how much impact that had on me as a young designer, any time I got even a shred of recognition. I think that has carried through for sure, because I do think that for creatives that I can relate to, or even not relate to, but I can see as a bit less experienced than I am, not getting the recognition. I see how that impacts their performance. I think that’s something that I really try to stay true to as a learning from that record, from being able to remember what it felt like to not be recognized, and to be quite invisible in the process.

Adam Morgan:

Wow. That’s so fascinating because I think most of the time as leaders, we’re like, oh yeah, I recognize that person, but it could have been a year and a half ago, but in your mind you’re like, oh yeah, yeah. I took care of that. Check.

Liz Oh:

Exactly.

Adam Morgan:

… For you to recognize that, it does make a bigger difference than we think in early careers of how we address people.

Liz Oh:

For sure.

Adam Morgan:

Oh, that’s interesting. Well maybe let me ask this question. Obviously since you have empathy superpower, and that’s a huge part of leadership and maybe some of us can learn from that, but some might say, yeah, yeah right in our industry, it’s like the days of the iron fist are gone, sure. Not everyone’s as mean as it was for me in the mid-nineties, everyone was just ruthless, and pick up your socks and your shoes and get going, quit messing around.

Liz Oh:

Totally.

Adam Morgan:

Maybe there’s the question of, are we too soft in business? Are we too empathetic? Does this empathy and softness really help business or does it make a difference? What are your thoughts?

Liz Oh:

Yeah, I don’t think so. I don’t think we are too soft. I think that there is a rigor that we need. I talk a lot about this with educators and other leaders. I don’t think that we’re too soft. I think that we are still somewhat misunderstood in business and I don’t think we have yet established ourselves within businesses to have everyone understand that good design is good business.

Liz Oh:

… Understand that good design is good business. And I think that once we do, I do think that there will be… It’s not about even softness or even empathy. I think we will just see better work because there will be just much more energy and passion around it. I think that a lot of creatives in the tech world, in any kind of business setting probably don’t feel as understood within the business on how they actually make a impact on the business and how they could positively affect business. And I think that most likely it’s coming from the structure. It’s very structural.

And so I do think that if the structure can evolve to be inclusive of design, I think that… And designers and writers and creatives overall, I think that we will see that the rigor that people miss from those old days will come pretty naturally, because I think, as creative problem solvers, we are very much wired… Many of us, not all of us. But many of us are wired to want to go solve it. Have ideas wherever we go, or… We don’t really shut off because I think that that’s just how a lot of creative brains are wired. But I think that the difference is the structure. Are we set up to really have an impact on the business or not? And I think that’s where the struggle can come from. And that’s where I think then the perception of creative teams or design teams can be that we have to be soft on them or that they’re just… I hear this a lot. Like, “Oh, they complain a lot,” or, “They can’t hack it.”

There’s all these things. But then you look and it’s just like, “Oh, okay. There’s a logic to this. They’re drowning in a million requests. There’s no sense of urgency. There’s no sense of prioritization. There’s no understanding of how this connects to business outcomes.” So I think that there’s always a reason in my mind, but I don’t think that necessarily we have gone too soft. But I do think that as creative leaders, it is our responsibility to make sure that there is that space and that that structure does evolve to include design, which is not easy. And there are going to be some companies that will not be open to that. And I think that that is… Then that’s the question that I have for that business or those companies, because I do think that that design plays a huge role in overall shaping of experiences that really do lead to positive business outcomes.

Adam Morgan:

Oh, 100%. In fact, as you bring it up, that’s a big part of what real creative leadership is all about, is that our creative voice is often overshadowed by everyone speaking business or marketing or finance or operations or whatever it may be. And in leadership of companies right now, those are strong voices. So here’s a question: How have you created space for creative voices to show up more and show how creativity can help more in business? What are some of the tactics you’ve taken?

Liz Oh:

Yeah. I think a lot of the ways to do that is finding ways to build trust with those leaders across the board. I think that is the first step that a lot of leaders need to take, is really assessing the situation at a company. Especially since I’m relatively new still at Grammarly, assessing the situation, really trying to understand how these other cross-functional partners or leaders have worked with design and creative teams in the past and how you hope to impact that, and how you hope to improve that. I think understanding… Again, I think I lean into active listening. I really do try to understand and see and analyze how other people interact to really understand how I can build trust. Because I don’t want to come into a new company especially coming out really strong. I do want to learn a lot first. Learn the lay of the land, learn how to work with leaders, and learn what they are really receptive to versus coming in with my point of view too strong.

That said, I think once you have been at a company and you do build those relationships, you do build that trust, I do think having a strong POV is really important. And I think really being consistent on that and not backing down from that is something that I’ve seen time and time again as something that really works. Because it is clear to me that creative teams in these settings are oftentimes the anomaly. Everyone else is speaking the same language and you’re the ones that are not. So I think it’s being that bridge, educating, being consistent and then holding the line I think is really important. I think also it’s really important for leaders… And I’m sure this very much, is to also have a set of leaders that work with you who really do also share this perspective and could also be the ones to help hold the line.

Because I do really think that a lot of designers and writers and producers really do need that support. And so I think it is just that cross between education, that consistent messaging, and then it’s like that defense to make sure that there is… Everyone understands what that point of view is and everyone really follows it. But also, because there is that need to bridge the gap, I do think that in that process it is really, really important that people understand why. I think once you explain and educate and share with cross-functional leaders who are not creative or not designers or not writers, I think that once you share reasons why things have to be a certain way or that you’re proposing something new, once they understand why I find that most people are really a lot more open minded to change than you would think.

And I think that that has been really encouraging overall because I’ve been now at a couple of different companies where there’s been massive change. And I think that change makes everyone a little nervous, but I do think that, in general, a lot more people have been more open to my perspective than I even imagined. And I think that there’s always that, “Oh, they’re not going to like this,” or, “It’s going to be so different.” But I think leading with that strong conviction of, “No, this is why it has to be done this way,” or, “This is why we’re trying to do this, because we want to improve X, Y, Z,” is really important to articulate.

Adam Morgan:

Oh, you are just saying all of the right phrases that I want to hear. Especially with this whole platform of real creative leadership. Being a creative leader is so different than just sitting back and waiting. You have to make change. You have to make opportunity. You have to speak marketing, you have to speak finance. You have to understand the why of the business so that you can say, “And here’s why creative is going to help improve that. Here’s how to take steps to get there.” So I’d love to switch to this. Perhaps there are some listening to this right now thinking, “Oh, maybe I don’t have a voice. Maybe I’m not vocal enough.” And it’s not just.. Again, we established having a voice isn’t just being a loud mouth. But I would love to hear from your experience of, why should they share their voice more often? What’s the why for them rather than just the why for the business?

Liz Oh:

Yeah. I think it’s because, for me at least, from my experience, it’s really important to have a voice so that you can be confident in who you are and what value you’re bringing to the table. I think that over time it’s really clear to me that the stronger my voice became, the more people trusted me. And that trust came with a lot of responsibility, but that responsibility also gave me a lot of strength to navigate complex situations and to solve really hard problems. And I think that as a creative, you want that strength. I think that you want to be able to build that up. And just like anything else in life, I think that you having that voice is going to just strengthen so many aspects of your life, not just in work, not just in your work, but also in so many other aspects of your life.

And I think that that is something that I take with me. And I don’t take that for granted. I think that, again, that did not happen easily in any way, shape, or form, but I do think that it has helped me. I do also want to say to that point, it was also really clear to me that there were a lot of people that didn’t look like me or sound like me. And I think that was really discouraging to me as a young designer. And it didn’t feel like I had a place because of that. So early on it’s like I self-discouraged because I was like, “It doesn’t exist, so it’s probably not for me.”

And I do really want to encourage people to not do that because I heard something recently, which is you can’t be what you don’t see. And so I think it’s one of those things where you can be that person for yourself. And I feel that it’s really, really important that you take those risks on yourself and start to shape your voice. It worked for me. It’s not going to work for everyone. It worked for me. I was able to find ways to strengthen my voice, to have advocates around me to encourage me. I can’t say enough how important it was to have teams, to have designers, to have colleagues, to have partners, have friends who were also just really encouraging to you. So I hope that everyone has that. And I feel that that was an important aspect to who I am today.

Adam Morgan:

Well, just listening, and I hope this doesn’t come off as too catch-phrasey, but it sounds like a short summary of that is, build your voice…

Adam Morgan:

It sounds like a short summary of that is build your voice and you’re building your career and then where you took it was and your life. So if you want to build a better life, it starts by building a stronger voice.

Liz Oh:

Yes.

Adam Morgan:

And it’s so funny, just thinking back. Everyone thinks I’m just like this extroverted loud mouth, whatever. And what they don’t realize is it took me time to figure that out too. I, in high school was the kid, in ninth grade, I remember I called him a wall comber myself was a wall comer where I just scoot along the edge of the wall and get from one class to the next. And now shall I talk with anyone? And even with I go out and speak in front of huge groups, it took a lot for me to train my brain, even as I become more and more extroverted, I had to think about, this is fun, this is excitement, this isn’t scary, this isn’t about fear or worries, but it’s all the positive stuff that I had to keep telling myself. It’s this, it’s this, it’s this, it’s awesome.

This is what I want. And then now it is that. I don’t worry about talking in front of people and I can hold a conversation and I know what I need to talk about. So this is so much great advice for all of us. So if anyone’s out there listening, please go out there. Liz is such a great example of being so purposeful about it. Same with creativity, it’s more of a Zen experience where you just kind of figure it out. But I think having some purpose around this and really as we’re looking toward the end of this year and looking for next year and goals, this is a good one. How can I work on my voice and what I believe in and how I express it and how I show up. And I think that is just something all of us can benefit from.

Liz Oh:

I think you said it all. I think that one of the things that I would just add to that is that I really do believe that creatives can change everything. I’ve seen so many incredible designers and writers and producers, and just so many people who are pouring their heart and soul into so much incredible work.

And I do think that I’m constantly in on inspired by people around me, especially the younger generations. And I think that I’m just really excited to still be a part of this industry and to be able to work alongside everyone and to keep learning. I think the reason why I love this work in general is because I think that there’s nothing that we can’t solve. And I think that within our world, and I think that design for me, unlike some really crazy things, I mean, we can’t solve some of the things that are happening in the world, but for our role in how we serve our value, I do think that there’s a lot of things that we can solve. And I think that it’s really essential that more and more people recognize that. And I’m really excited.

Adam Morgan:

Yeah. Just hearing you say that really, not quite choke me up, but I felt the power of that. I’ve always felt that creative ideas can change everything. But it’s also true that creative people can change everything. And that really is our quest. And when I say creative people, I believe everyone can be creative. It’s not just designers and writers, but they just happen to spend a lot more time focused on that. But absolutely the more we tap into our natural human creativity, the more we are going to improve the world and change things and improve our lives. So, that’s awesome, that’s a great story. Thank you. Thank you.

Liz Oh:

Yes, of course.

Adam Morgan:

Well, Liz, that this has been an awesome conversation. Thank you so much.

Liz Oh:

Thanks for having me.

Adam Morgan:

Let’s start. Just where can our viewers find you or follow your career? Or learn more about you?

Liz Oh:

That’s a great question. I’m trying to be more active on LinkedIn. That’s probably the easiest way. I’m not as active on Twitter, although that’s something that I’m thinking about exploring, Twitter and Instagram. My Instagram is private right now only because it’s really only of my family. So if you want to see a lot of really cute baby pictures and pictures of puppies, totally, you can follow me for sure. But it’s not really designed forward I would say as of right now, I think that we’re doing really fun, amazing things. There’s a lot of things in our roadmap or the roadmap that we’re creating for design at Grammarly. So hopefully that will be external very soon. And that’s something that people can look forward to because there’s amazing work being done. And there’s at least, I think my last count was 60 designers, writers, product designers, researchers on our team who are doing amazing work. So we’re making that more external facing as a goal for next year. So please look out for that.

Adam Morgan:

Oh, that’s amazing. We will look out for it. Thank you. Thank you Liz, for being on real creative leadership, we appreciate your voice and are so glad that you worked on it and have delivered such an awesome story for us today.

Liz Oh:

Thank you so much.

Adam Morgan:

And as always, you can find us at realcreativeleadership.com. You can check out past shows. You can look into the show notes. We’ll link anything we talk about in the show notes. It’s always a great place to find. If you forget something, you can go back and find a little nugget that you heard on one of the shows, but we’re also on YouTube. We’re on at your favorite podcast, wherever you find us, on LinkedIn, of course, just like you Liz.

So we would just ask you to join us, follow us, ask questions, raise your voice, become a little more active with our community. And we appreciate any comment or suggestion that you happen to give us. Personally, you can find me on LinkedIn or at adamwmorgan.com and The Stoke Group who helps produce this show. You can find them at The Stoke Group if you need help with any marketing or other big ideas or just a creative team to help you work through some of your problems.

So thank you. Thank you. We appreciate all of the audience here that supports us. So thanks again and good luck finding your voice. We’ll see you at the next episode.

Well, Liz, thank you so much for sharing all of your wonderful insight in how you found your voice. And I really hope that our listeners out there can find a path forward to get their voice figured out and also heard more. But if someone wants to follow up on with you and follow your career, where would they find you? Tell us your URLs.

Liz Oh:

So the best way to find me is through LinkedIn. So please do follow me, connect. You could also see some of my work, not my most recent work at lizoh.design, that’s Liz, L-I-Z-O-H dot design. We are working at Grammarly very hard on all of the work for 2023. And so we will be more external facing. And so URL’s like grammarly.design will be live in 2023.

Adam Morgan:

Oh, excellent. Well thank you so much. No, that was fantastic. Well, and as always, you can find us at realcreativeleadership.com where you can see past shows, episodes, look at show notes, any of the detail you want on any of the shows.

And we encourage you to join the conversation, build your voice, maybe by making some comments on our YouTube channel or wherever else you listen to real creative leadership. If it’s a podcast, wherever you want to find a forum to share your voice, we would love to hear any of your feedback. And we appreciate all of your involvement. Me personally, you can find me on LinkedIn as well. And at adamwmorgan.com, if you want to learn more about my books or articles or other things that I’m working on, and then as always, we appreciate The Stoke Group who helps produce this show. So you can find them at thestokegroup.com. If you need help with strategic or creative insights or help on any of the projects you’re working on, they’re a great partner. So thanks again for listening. Good luck everyone searching and finding your voice. And we hope to hear more from all of you out there in the industry. So we’ll see you next time.