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How to Unleash Your Strategic Creativity
December 15, 2021 Career Growth Leadership Strategy
Guest Speaker

Jim Antonopoulos

Managing Director at Tank

Jim Antonopoulos is the Managing Director of strategy and innovation consultancy Tank, based in Melbourne, Australia. He is an advocate for purposeful business and innovation, with a career spanning 25+ years — helping leadership teams develop strategy, and shaping change across organizational cultures, through innovation mindsets and methods.

Hey, creatives: It’s time to flex your strategic muscles

Most creative people, says Jim Antonopoulos, haven’t been taught to sit comfortably in an ambiguous problem space — a new client brief, for example, or company messaging hurdle. Instead, creatives are trained to focus on execution, often sacrificing strategic thinking in the process.

That one-sided thinking has to end. And as Managing Director of Melbourne-based strategy and innovation consultancy Tank, Jim is on the front lines of the strategic evolution.

In this episode of Real Creative Leadership, Jim shares simple strategies to help creative leaders bring together vision and the “now” to unleash strategic creativity. By peeking over the fence of your expertise, pausing to ask the right questions, and living in the “problem space,” you’ll empower yourself to think bigger and more strategically, delivering creative solutions to even the most complex challenges.

Watch this episode to discover:

  • The relationship between strategy and creativity — and why you can’t have one without the other
  • How to overcome an execution-first mindset
  • Strategies to help you work more “upstream” and deliver top-notch work as a result
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mentioned in this show:
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Adam Morgan
Creative Leader and RCL Host
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The Stoke Group
Digital Marketing and Full-Service Content Agency
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Transcript

Adam: Hello and welcome back to Real Creative Leadership. We’re excited to have you here. This is season two, episode 13. We’ve got a great show today on an interesting topic. And this is a topic that has spanned my whole career, and it’s creative strategy. Understanding it. How do we get it more of it? How do we build off of each other, and find a vision for our company or our clients? And our special guest today is joining from Melbourne Australia, Jim Antonopoulos. He’s the Managing Director of Strategy & Innovation Consultancy Tank, whose work spans across Australia, Southeast Asia, New Zealand and Greece. So welcome, Jim, to Real Creative Leadership.

Jim: Hi Adam. Thank you for having me.

Adam: On the topic of creative leadership, we started this podcast a couple years ago and somehow you found out about it and reached out and said, “Adam, I’m building a whole bunch of other stuff on creative leadership here in Australia. We need to talk.” and so we had a chat a while back, and it’s just been in the works of finally getting you here on the show. So I’m super excited to have you here.

Jim: I’m excited to be here. I think it’s a topic that both of us are quite passionate about and I think we’ve really aligned on that. So I’m really happy to be here. Thank you, Adam.

Adam: Well, and you definitely are more of an expert on this. This is your job. Your consultancy is creative strategy. So, before we get too deep into that, I want to give you an opportunity to just talk about your career a little bit, or at least just your introduction to creative leadership and why you’re passionate about it and then we can start digging into the details.

Jim: Sure. I’m the managing director of Tank. We’re based in Melbourne, in Australia, where summer is hopefully approaching soon. We’re all looking at our watches, waiting. Our core focus is, we work with government, education, NGOs and non-profits and for-purpose organizations, so a very specific part of the market. Our core work is in research, strategy, brand strategy, and we do build what we call a bridge to creativity with creative strategy as well. So we do a lot of that work in those sectors.

I’m very grateful that our clients come to us, not so much with a brief, but with really big questions and that’s a really great place to start for us. I do a few other things. I run an online community on creative leadership and I’m writing a book on the topic as well, which I’m sure we’ll talk about soon. That’s me, and I have three children, first and foremost, of course, that take a lot of my time and pathos and they’re absolutely wonderful.

Adam: Well, we have that in common. I also have three kids.

Jim: Yeah.

Adam: It’s my favorite number. So I’m all in on threes.

Jim: Exactly. It keeps us very busy, so it’s really quite wonderful.

Adam: That’s awesome. Well, let’s start out. Talk to us about the relationship between strategy and creativity. You know, when we talked earlier about this, you had some really interesting comments on creative people and how they learn to flex those strategic muscles.

Jim: Yeah. Look, I think that’s a really big question and I think when you first asked me, I said to you immediately, I said, “I’ve never met a creative person that has done strategy well.” And I agree with that comment. I haven’t, in my career, met a creative person that just does strategy as a whole really well, but I’ve met really great creative people who are strategic. 

 

And I’ve also been influenced by the likes of John Maeda, Naomi Klein, really amazing creative people who have used their creativity to create amazing platforms, but also to make change. 

 

So, the relationship between strategy and creativity, and this might be due to my sort of limited field of vision, or it might not, I guess, but I feel that most creative people, they’re stuck in this moment and they’re afraid to sit, or there are barriers around them, or haven’t been taught to sit in the space of the problem — the problem space.

 

So actually work backwards rather than go forwards. A lot of creative people leap towards execution, or when diagnosing a problem already have the outcome in mind and are already formulating the outcome. The relationship with strategy and creativity, it’s actually very close. Strategy is a creative discipline in any domain, not just in our industry, in any domain, there is an element of creativity in good strategy. It’s problem solving. It’s what we do as creative people. So the relationship is actually bound really tightly. Unfortunately, many creative people just haven’t been taught how to diagnose problems, how to sit comfortably in that ambiguous problem space.

 

A lot of us were taught how to execute, how to move forward, how to vision and imagine. So, that’s moving forward. We haven’t been taught about the now and what led us to the now. I think that when we are taught, and the people that I mentioned, when we do bring those two tension points together, really great strategic creativity emerges.

Adam: And I think another reason why, perhaps, at least just thinking back on my experience, is that a lot of us, as creatives, we have a lot of deadlines and you don’t get a lot of time to sit in that creative space. It’s sit down, come up with an ad, or sit down, and come up with the concept. I think we’re trained to go to execution really quickly. That’s just because that’s what our output is. But you’re right, to spend the time and to carve away the time to sit in that problem space, and just really think deeply about the problem. Those opportunities don’t come up very often. We have to make it happen.

Jim: That’s right. And, obviously, generally speaking, some creative people, that’s their role, is to execute on that one thing, to design that ad, right? And the problem would’ve been diagnosed and the strategy developed months prior to that moment arriving. So, I guess when we talk about creative people, not all creative people are the same, nor do they all perform the same function, or the same role within an organization, or within a consultancy, for brands as well. So, that just a point of clarity.

Some creative people, their role is to execute on that one thing. But if we are the creative person who is listening to the brief and we have that opportunity to understand the context of that brief and to understand what problem led to that brief and work backwards from there, and then emerge into that opportunity and diagnose that problem. That’s a great place to be. I think that’s a really great place to aspire to, as creative leaders, to develop professionally. To work more upstream, which is what we are talking about, rather than to use the analogy downstream, that’s filled with opportunity for creative people and creative leaders.

Adam: Maybe let’s see, as we’re talking about this, I wonder for our listeners, we need to back up just a little bit. Because when it comes to strategy, when we talk about the relationship of strategy and creativity. In our companies, we talk about strategic initiatives or strategy all the time. And you have a whole Masterclass. At some point, I’d love you to tell the listeners where they can go find that on strategy, where you dig deeply into principles. Let’s talk a little bit about what creative strategy is. How is that different than the rest of strategy and business strategy?

Jim: Yeah. There’s a number of questions there, isn’t there?

Jim: Yeah. Look a little while back, I was asking myself these questions, “What is creative strategy?” And, “What am I doing?” No, sorry, “What the hell am I doing?” And I was asking myself these questions. I had this immense impostor syndrome thinking that I can’t do the strategy stuff, because other people do that and it’s the vocabulary that’s not really mine. That true voice in that the back of our heads that we all have. I then began reading and learning more about it and actually sharing what I was learning about. And I built a course called the Strategy Masterclass, which I’ve then eventually started doing lots of that. And I put together the MarchFirst community, marchfirst.com.au. And you can find all that stuff there.

I just believed in just teaching what I know as a way of learning, because then when you teach what you know, the people communicate back to you what they’ve learned, and sometimes it’s different to what you thought you were teaching, right? And that loop was a true journey for me to discover creative leadership in amongst teaching people how to do strategy. So, I essentially teach how we do strategy for large corporates in our consultancy. I just basically put that together and teach people how to do that. So, that’s the one thing that you mentioned about the Strategy Masterclass.

The second thing I think you mentioned, how do we get better at strategy. So, what I first thought was I thought you had to read the right strategy book. I thought you had to know the right strategy person. I thought you had to do an MBA, right? And they were all mistakes because good strategy is a creative discipline, it’s problem solving, it’s diagnosing a problem. So, the things that we can do to get better at strategy and to think more strategically, and which means to think more clearly, is to read broadly, is to actually look over the fence of our industry and look into other worlds and other industries and learn from them. Learn from people who have come before us and have actually thought about this before us, not necessarily in a direct, straight line in our industry, and I mean quite broadly.

 

I think we need to learn to question the question. The person sitting down and being asked to design an ad is posed the question that is believed to be answered. If they have an opportunity, they should be questioning that question. And any brief that is put in front of us, we should be empowered to surround ourselves with people who support and include us, to question the question in a professional, diplomatic, respectful, professional way. And those three things that I just mentioned, that requires an understanding of how to enter into a dialogue with someone, it requires empathy, compassion.

 

There’s a lot of talk about creative people having to learn the language of business. I kind of agree and disagree, but understanding another person’s perspective is probably a better way of putting it. Understanding the language of business is important anyway, like just for any vocation. I think they’re the key things that I would say to a creative person watching or listening to this, that there are many, many, many strategy courses and books out there, but I think reading broadly, peeking over the fence, and questioning those questions are probably the places to start in the first instance.

Adam: No, that’s great, and I completely agree. If I think back on moments where I’ve been working on creative strategy with different folks, we start with a lot of the questions. Because the act of creativity is where we’re making connections, where we’re coming up with the big concept or the idea. But if this is the pre-work, right, the creative strategies, the pre-work to even make sure we’re in the right space or are we doing the right things, or where are we going, sitting in that problem space.

I found that a lot of times, at least with colleagues, it really is starting out with questions. And not just questions about the project, but just questions in general. And I think your advice of kind of people watch, and read broadly, and really observe human life, I think that’s so essential, not just in becoming a great creative, but in the strategy, because what you’re trying to do is relate to real good human experiences, and what would people want, and what would they care about. Where you sit in that space and the more you empathize with all the other people out there, because you’ve watched them and you’re a student of people, then you start to understand, well, this seems like the right answer. They would care about X, not Y. And that helps you get a better strategy.

Jim: Yeah, that’s right. I get briefed by boards, a group of 10 people, directors of organizations, I’ll be briefed by them. I’m sitting in the room with them. I spend a lot of time just watching them, and listening, and watching how they communicate with one another. And I ask them questions about the tensions that they experience between one another, and within their organization, and the challenges that they’re facing, the hurdles they need to jump. I’m interested in them as human beings. 

Reading a piece of paper with the words creative brief at the top of it, it’s dehumanizing. It’s just focusing on this piece of paper, alone, is dehumanizing. Talking to the human being who wrote that and understands the bit at the top that talks about the problem, and understanding that human being is the place to start. It’s the place where strategy exists. It’s in that dialogue and that’s a creative discipline.

Adam: Absolutely. For me sometimes, it’s so interesting, when I think about what you just talked about, how the creative brief is so dehumanizing. Most of the time in my experience in working with even great marketers, they’re going to be coming to that brief bringing all of the quote unquote strategy around the product, the business, the focus on what we’re trying to say from that perspective. 

And I found that a lot of the times, what I bring to the table is that human side, it’s the customer centricity, the let’s focus on humans and people, what they’re really going to accept. And is this big, long story about some tech topic even matter to them. Maybe not, right? And so it’s that yin and yang of us bringing the creative strategy, which is really how do we show the human side of this and then end up on the best experience for the customer that isn’t just a one side coming at you from the product.

Jim: Yeah, completely agree, I completely agree. And unfortunately we’re our own worst enemy. Our creative education system doesn’t support that dialogue. It’s very focused on moving us through, spitting us out at the end, teaching us how and what, not why. So very production line. We tend to fall into a world of fluffy bullshit strategy, right? Visions, missions, goals, right? Imagining the future, predicting the future, drawing and illustrating the future, but never really sitting and understanding what led us to this moment right now, so we can actually solve the right problem with our creativity, and then do the visioning imagining stuff, right?

We get taught that goals are strategy, goals aren’t strategy, hope isn’t strategy, vision isn’t strategy, right? But yet, it’s sort of drummed into us to do that stuff. And we’re our own worst enemy, because a lot of the creative folk, the creative industry, they exist in an echo chamber, right? We do. Peak bodies and associations, it’s an echo chamber. We rarely ever peek over the fence. We rarely ever reach out and enter into collaborations and partnerships, and I’m generalizing here, of course, with cross-industry, cross-functions. It’s rare to see.

Adam: Well, so now that we’ve talked about what is creative strategy and how we as creatives or people can do it. And I agree, your comment at the beginning of I haven’t met a good creative who’s great at creative strategy is probably true, because we’re not, first of all, taking care of our own selves, the cobbler’s shoes first. But the next question is, the problem I get a lot is, creatives will ask, “Well, how do I get other stakeholders in the business to care about creative strategy?” Or “How do I get my clients to care about creative strategy?” Because right now maybe they don’t put value on it. So how do we help put value on it or guide them to see value so that they can make it part of the process?

Jim: Yeah. That’s a great question, right? Value is always going to be decided by the person who’s buying. It’s not up to us. So the person who’s buying decides the value to them, right? So that’s the client, I guess, or inside an organization it’s the CEO, it’s the executive, right? They deem the value of what you’re selling. 

So it’s on us to ensure we’re sending the right signals as creative professionals so they value what we do. So it’s on our industry associations and our peak bodies to advocate and set policy and governance for our industry to work within, so then other industries could see the value of what the creative industry does. It’s on us.

I’m sure you have and I have met in my 30 years of my career, have met many creative people, if not all, including us, complain about the fact that they don’t see the value. Quote unquote. They don’t see the value in what I do. I’ve complained about that. I’m sure you have Adam and people listening have complained. The client just doesn’t see the value. That’s a dead-end conversation that I’ve had with myself, that you’ve had in your career and many people have had. It’s a dead end. It’s not going to go anywhere. It’s an echo chamber. We need to get up and demonstrate the value of creative strategy as an industry, as creative leaders, so they then see the value. If we can’t do it, they won’t see it.

Adam: Yeah and it almost seems like for me, at least for those listening, the best thing you can do is just find an example, a small project, something you’ve done where you’ve had a good outcome from having a good creative strategy and you can show how it’s made an impact further down the line before you got to execution and then go talk to your stakeholders, your clients, whoever it is and just show them. Yeah, it’s on us to sell them on it, right? Here’s the value you get from it. Can we keep doing this?

Jim: That’s right and other things, we don’t have to go it alone either. The one thing that, it’s common in our and industry in Australia is this working in silos, working as individual businesses, rather than actually considering how might we actually work together or if I might sit down and think, Adam’s really good at this thing, why don’t I actually partner with Adam and go for this client together? Because Adam is really great at this creative strategy stuff and I’m really great at executing. Instead of me trying to just do everything. I put my ego aside and actually create collaborations and partnerships in our business models that then actually demonstrate that value. So play to each other’s strengths rather than assume that every creative business has to be great at every part of creativity. Again, it’s a dead end conversation and unfortunately we see that a lot.

Adam: Something else leading up to that, not just trying to sell our clients or stakeholders or leadership at our company on creative strategy, but it’s funny, you’d mentioned something in our earlier conversation about how we as an industry are really bad at using it for ourselves, like for our own agencies, our own businesses, our own careers even. Talk to me more about that. How can we fix our own house first?

Jim: I don’t buy, I think, the analogy of, what is it? The cobbler’s shoes. I’ve heard that a lot in my career as well, is that, oh, we don’t do our own stuff that always just gets parked to the side. We’ve got to focus on clients first. I struggle with that comment because I know secretly that it’s kind of true. We’re so, kind of, we’re like that duck on the, on the, on the lake and it, its feet are going crazy under the water, but it’s serene at the top.

But I do think we have to be client number one. We have to treat our creative professionalism, our businesses and our professional development as client number one. We have to focus on that because the ripple effect is, they won’t see the value. They will always see, they will position us accordingly. They will say, “Here’s a brief, I need it by tomorrow.” Don’t question it. Read it once and just get going, put your hand on the mouse and do the job, right? 

 

Silently that’s what we’re being told, right? So we need to treat ourselves as client number one. We need to, which is why that this journey that I’ve kind of been on to discover what creative leadership means is, has been really remarkable because I’ve heard a lot of creative people talk about this issue and we have to then, we have to look in the mirror. We have to look at ourselves and what we’re doing, what we’re saying and understand why we’re doing, why we’re unable to challenge the system. Why we’re unable to question the question, right? It’s not somebody else’s fault.

Adam: That’s rough. I mean, I know that’s a tough answer for a lot of us where it’s like, and even going back to what we talked about before, it’s on us to build our own careers. It’s on us to build our own companies. It’s on us to sell it to business leaders and get them to believe in it. And I know that feels like a heavy burden. It feels like a lot, but I guess it’s also just like, it’s a great opportunity. You just have to embrace it. We have to, that’s part of what we’re all about, right? Like being a creative person is you want to have questions and think deeply about stuff and have it relate. It’s what we signed up for, so if it’s not, if we’re not doing it, then it’s not just going to get fed to us and then we just go through the, then it will become paint by numbers and it’s no fun. 

Jim: That’s right, Adam. That’s absolutely right. Creativity is wonderful, right? We’ve all got it. You and I, everyone listening. We’ve carved careers out of it. We’ve chosen that this is our path, right? We love it because we’re able to, as you said, think laterally, apply that lateral thinking to problem solving. How lucky are we to have chosen a path that is so ingrained within us, right? We get to do things with our heads, our hands and our hearts, right? 

Not many people can say that about their vocation, about their job and this alone, that’s enough, I feel. That’s enough, but we don’t know that, we don’t see that, right? We are unable, as a collective, as a, generally speaking, creative people are unable to actually see that they have this wonderful sort of alignment of planets right in their path, and if only they could use it well. 

In 2010, if you allow me, in 2010, IBM put out a study, they interviewed 1500 CEOs around the world, across 60 countries, 33 industries, right? All those CEOs were asked, what’s the number one leadership competency for successful firms in the future, for successful enterprises in the future. Unanimously, creativity was number one.

Enough said, right? And yet we’re sitting there saying, oh they don’t see the value in what we do. They do see the value in what we do, right? We just have to bring those two together.

Adam: That’s a good point. That’s a good point. They didn’t choose something else on that study. 

Jim: And they didn’t. 1,500 CEOs, 33 industries, 60 countries. That’s an impressive sample.

Adam: Even if you compare that against, I’ve seen so many studies just from the pandemic of the last couple years of the most important things that businesses have had to do and a lot of times it’s stuff that’s just creativity under a different name. You have to learn to pivot, you have to try innovative new things or it’s all the same stuff. Looking at problems in a unique way. Getting in that, sitting in that problem space and coming up with a creative answer that’s going to help solve things besides just going through the normal process, right? Like trying it differently, looking at it differently.

Jim: Completely agree. Yeah. Completely agree.

Adam: Here’s my next question, and it may be a multi-part question, so get ready. For those who are just trying this out, they’re like, okay, maybe I’m early in my career, maybe I’m not. I’m just wanting to get better at creative strategy. What are some resources that you know of, books, things like, even though I said earlier you said just read broadly, but maybe dig into that a little bit more or there’s some good strategy books or just anything, a class somewhere? And then also what gets you up and keeps you excited about doing this day in day out? What’s your motivation? So what can people look to for inspiration or motivation?

Jim: Good question. Three questions, I think. I said read broadly, but firstly, more specifically, conversations like this, what you’re doing at the moment I absolutely love, Real Creative Leadership is fantastic. I wouldn’t have reached out otherwise. I think there’s something that you and I, the timing and the alignment of what you and I are doing just sort of clicked at the right time. So conversations like this one and the ones that you’ve had in the past and the ones that you will have in the future, I think are really valuable. They offer diverse and varying and sometimes contradictory, but that’s important, perspectives, right? They offer that because the creative industry and creative leadership is so complex and so varied, and we need to understand all the various aspects of it. This conversation is just one aspect, right?

So acknowledging that, I think what you’re doing is fantastic. Communities — Marchfirst is fantastic — but there are many others as well. So listening to diverse perspectives, I would always say to younger creative leaders that they need to do that. There isn’t just one avenue. There are many paths so jumping into communities is really important. I mentioned a book to you a little while back by Richard Rumelt called “Good Strategy, Bad Strategy.” It’s not about creativity, yet it is. It’s about strategy as a whole, as a discipline. It’s fantastic. I would highly recommend reading that.

The latter part of your question about what gets me out of bed, what inspires me. I read very broadly and I read voraciously. I’ll find inspiration in Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, which I read a lot about the Stoics and I’ve read that now three times. That book. I’ll find inspiration that I apply to my work in books like that. I’ve read pretty much everything that James Baldwin has written, he’s one of my favorite authors. I find inspiration in his essays, in his fiction and non-fiction work. 

I draw as well so I find stillness in just reading and drawing. That’s important as well. There are multitudes of articles and books written about the importance of solitude and stillness to just process the information that’s been thrown at us every single day or the problems that we’re solving. Those things I think are rich for creativity, rich resources for creativity. There isn’t this one specific book that will provide the answer for that young creative leader. There are many avenues, there are many paths. What I’ve just described are just mine, but they are broad and varied. I do CrossFit five times a week and that’s for me a creative pursuit. It’s solitude. It pushes me to the edge of something, and I’m able to then see things really clearly. That’s me, other people will be very different. 

Adam: I’ve said the phrase a lot, you have to read to lead, and I know it’s just because of the wonderful rhyming there, but it really is true. I think it, as far as like a creative person, being a student of people, being a student of culture is really important and whether that’s in movies or entertainment or just things that people are into, I think that keeps you sharp in the creative world. But there is something about reading a variety of different books because the.

 

There is something about reading a variety of different books, because it’s the ideas that get seated in your head that are different than entertainment. It’s like a little bit of philosophy or just thinking through big ideas, and that can be found in a variety of books. I mean, it could be regular leadership books. It could be podcasts. I mean, thank you for the plug here for Real Creative Leadership. It’s really just constantly learning, I think, that really helps. 

 

Jim: That’s right. You’re right, Adam. Seeing the creativity within that, like someone sat down and they wrote 400 pages. Someone sat down and wrote a script and it turned into a film. Actually seeing the creativity in those endeavors, I think, is really important rather than just skimming the surface.

Adam: Well, we’re getting close to our time here. I’d love you to dig in just a little bit more about MarchFirst and that community and what participants are finding valuable and important there.

Jim: Sure. There’s about 500 people or so at last count and slowly growing. It’s a free Slack community that we just started just to collect different topics. Mindfulness, purpose, driven leadership, creative leadership, those sorts of aspects of creative leadership, understanding who we are and why we do what we do. We have reading lists. It’s a great little community.

Every month we have a small all cohort, about 10 of us, we meet on the first Friday of every month on a call and we just discuss various aspects of sort of creative leadership or purpose-driven leadership. It’s been really fantastic. We’ve got people from all over the world. All over Australia, of course, and varying perspectives. Also, and this is important, varying industries. It’s not an echo chamber. We have people from construction; from architecture; writers — and I’m talking literature, not copywriters. Yeah, really. And designers of course, and creative people as well.

That’s been really — that was an experiment. That’s been really insightful just to watch and listen and nurture a community, which is an endeavor in itself, but the connections I’ve personally made have been probably the highlight of my career, and the weekly journal that I write every Tuesday, which is also on that website, MarchFirest, is … again, I’ve been one article a week since 2016, that’s been the highlight of my career. You can take the awards and put them in the garage, but just sitting down and meditating on an idea every week has been really powerful for me.

Adam: We are going to be definitely be putting the links in the show notes here. If you want to find out more about MarchFirst or some of these other books and items that you’ve listed. A hundred percent, I’ve been signed up for your newsletter, getting your weekly, your emails for quite a while. A couple of them have definitely inspired conversations that I’ve had on Real Creative Leadership, so thank you so much for that. If you’re listening, go check it out right now. Go sign up for Jim’s weekly article. It’s really interesting, very insightful. You put a lot of deep thought on those and I can tell.

Jim: Thank you. Appreciate it.

Adam: I appreciate all those.

Jim: I appreciate that. Thank you.

Adam: Well, we’re at the end here. First, thank you everyone for listening this far. This has been a great discussion on creative strategy. I know it’s an elusive monster sometimes, but the more we just keep trying, I think the more we as an industry can make a bigger dent in it. But Jim, why don’t you tell people where can they find you? Just so that we hear it one more time. If they want to learn more about you or your business or your communities, where can we find you, and give us some of those locations so we can spell them out?

Jim: Sure, sure. My business is at wearetank.com.au, that’s my consultancy. Marchfirst.com.au is the platform that I’ve built to house my weekly journal, the community, and a whole bunch of courses and stuff for creative leaders. They’re the two main avenues you can find me, and you’ll find lots of other stuff and things to explore.

Adam: Oh, that’s fun. I also love that as part of your community, you’ve met physically. That’s something we haven’t done with Real Creative Leadership, it’s just putting out content. But I would be curious to hear if anyone’s listening, just to with a comment. Should we do some sort of a physical thing and get together? I’d love to know if that’s of value to everyone. As an extrovert, I would love it. I’d love it. But curious to hear what the listeners say about that, so we’ll put that out there and just see.

Jim: Awesome.

Adam: Thank you so much. As always, you can find us at realcreativeleadership.com. We’ve got a full catalog of all the past shows. A lot of, like Jim said, it’s just a piece here and a piece there and you can listen to past shows and see what you can pick up on. You can also email us from the site and ask any question or suggest a future topic. I would appreciate that as well. You can also follow Real Creative Leadership on all your major social channels. Me personally, you can find me at adamwmorgan.com and you can also learn more about the Stoke group, the digital marketing agency that helps produce this show, and they’re found at thestokegroup.com. I’d love to invite you to connect and engage with this in any way. Leave a comment to one of the shows, like or share something, post a comment, and again, get back to me on if you think that having something physical would be interesting to you. I’d love to hear more from viewers and listeners about that as well. Thanks again.

Adam: Thanks Jim, for joining us. We hope to get more engagement and have other people follow you and get to learn some great stuff from you as well. Thank you.

Jim: Cheers, Adam. All the best. All right. Thanks, all.